My Rule for Life

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.

Friday, July 3, 2009

A Discussion, Not a Debate

Why oh why didn't I call this Christian Conservative Outrage? Because I don't like to mix religion and politics together. That's one reason I left the Lutheran Church. Politics from the pulpit. No thanks, I like my politics on the stump and my religion from the pulpit. In this ol' boy's opinion they ain't to be mixed! Now that I have got that off my chest I feel better.

Let me set this up. My daughter is a very good and strong Christian. We have always had good discussion regarding certain theories about religion. Of course we never argue or get mad at each other. Well maybe she does (not really)but I never do. Actually I believe we do quite well even though we may have different opinions about things. Especially my best friend who is Jewish. Why this should bother her I don't know. Her Great Grandmother was Jewish. Her grandmother whom worshiped the ground my daughter walked on very quietly brought her Jewish traditions into our family. Even though she converted to being a Lutheran when she married my dad. OK, so you should have the idea now.

Sarah, my daughter, and I were walking in the park the other day. Of course at some point the discussion came to a question about ABNMOMMA and what she was doing. I said she was looking down at us and smiling. Just waiting hopefully for me to join her. Sarah's thoughts were different. Of course I rebutted with in Heaven there is no sadness only a feeling of joy and understanding. There is no pain nor suffering and earthly beings like Sarah and I were looked on with a peace that knows no pain. An understanding that this is the way it is and has to be. It's part of the Plan.

I emailed my draft to Sarah telling her I wanted it to be accurate. She emailed me back with her reply. I have edited out my glaring misunderstandings of our conversation. Here is her reply.

This is not exactly what I said or what I meant... I said and believe that i don't think that Mom is paying any attention to what is going on down here on earth because the Bible says that "there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying or pain;"and if she saw us down here sad it would make her sad too and that just can't work. Thinking this way takes more faith and less comfort. God watches over us and takes care of us. If we have a personal relationship with him then when we get to heaven our "job" is to worship him and that is what we will be doing and all we will care about doing because Jesus died for us this is what God's word says, not our own emotional comfort.

Now, without taking sides and playing nice how about commenting. IMHO what is your understanding of Heaven? You can even go so far as to tell us what do you think ABNMOMMA is doing. Is she looking down? If you read my post at Mark 1:11 you know I had a feeling about her the other day.

What is your Heaven?

Deo Volente

If you like good Conservative discussion and sometimes a little liberal commentary why not become a follower of CONSERVATIVE OUTRAGE!


Adrienne said...

None of us are going to know until we shuffle off this mortal coil.

That being said I believe that the people in heaven pray for us just as we pray for them. But if someone wants to believe that they have no interest in what goes on here - that's ok, too.

It's really becomes about whatever floats your boat, as long as you don't deny the resurrection of the body.

That's why I choose to believe our pets are in heaven. My pastor believes this also so I'm not alone. There is nothing in Catholic teaching that denies this ....

Most Rev. Gregori said...

I was taught that when we die, our spirit (soul) goes back to God, but that is not exactly heaven. Heaven comes later after the Last Judgment. Am I sure, NO, I am not. All I am sure of is that whatever happens, if we believe in the birth, suffering, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and have accepted His gift of Salvation, then whatever happens, it is all good.

And like Adrienne, I also believe our pets will also be in heaven, because if they weren't, then God would not have given us the ability to love and care for them so much nor for them to love us back.

That is my story and I'm sticking with it.

MightyMom said...

ok. say my Grandma died when I was 15. I was very close to her and she to I. I have talked to her many times since her death and I do believe that she has become one of my "Guardian Angels" and has watched over me.

There is scriptural evidence that the dead work and interceede with God on behalf of the living. And there is a lot of evidence (mostly Catholic I believe) that asking a dead person for help does benefit the living. This cannot be true if your daughter (your other Sarah) were correct.

But here's the deal. We have no way of understanding the next life. "now I see through the glass only darkly...then I shall see plain" (more or less) Any words or concepts that you or I can put to Heaven will automatically be insufficient of it's true explanation.

I know there are times I've felt Grandma's hug/hand on my shoulder. I know she has interest in my life and is watching over me. And I'll never try to convince you of it.

If it saddens Sarah to think of her mother watching over her life, then she should eschew that concept and focus on the oneness with God that Gretchen is enjoying for that part is also scriptural. If it comforts you to know she is riding shotgun on a trip you took together manytimes before and helping you stay the course...then hold to it.

our interactions with the dead and what we'll be doing after we die are MYSTERIES. We will never know. And, short of heresy, the best thing we can do is to hold to those ideas about after life that bring comfort to our grief.

Subvet said...

While I have no idea of what comes hereafter, I sincerely hope to be met by both my father and brother. The first thing I'd like to do is kick their asses for the incredibly stupid way they died.

The specifics are the topic for a future post.

leisty said...

My Dad has been waiting for me to comment for the past couple of years so I just wanted to tell him via this blog that i think he does a great job provooking discussion. Keep up the good work Dad! I do have a few comments on pets and heaven and angels as well but would like to base them on scripture and not emotion or "feelings". "YOu shall know the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you free" John 8:32 I get back to you this later.

ABNPOPPA said...

My little finally commented. Hi Sis. Can't wait on your comments.

Love you.

Dad, Oh yes, Welcome to the blogospehere!

Anne Rettenberg LCSW said...

"I don't like to mix religion and politics together"

Seriously?? This blog mixes politics and religion all the time!

I don't technically believe in an afterlife. I think this is it. However, I believe people "live" on in the memories of the people whom they had an impact on in their lives. As far as I'm concerned, this is an afterlife.

The Local Malcontent said...

What an interesting mix of discussion you've started, Pops.

I don't think that any description of "heaven" could be made, in human words, terms. For whatever you might think it is, it will be 10,000x better.

"Heaven" could not be a happy place, if someone there had a beloved relative in "Hell".
Could it??

This is why I personally believe that the incomprehensible Love of God Almighty has yet to be put down in human language, even the Bible.
There is a reconciliation which
we still do not know about, between saints and sinners,
but will undoubtedly further glorify our Creator,
beyond our wildest dreams.

ABNPOPPA said...


I don't like to mix politics and religion together. Sometimes it just happens. For the sake of discussion. I could have another blog but I don't have the proper education or background to speak with authority on religion. Any idiot can comment on politics, therefore I qualify.

Why the qualifier "technically" in your response regarding believing in an afterlife? Is the afterlife technical or spiritual? If this is the "afterlife" are you saying you believe in re-incarnation?

I agree that people "live" on in the memories of the people whom they have had an impact on. I am a little confused. Are you saying the memories are the "afterlife"?


ABNPOPPA said...

Having commented directly to Elizabeth I am surprised by the comments and comforted at the same time. It appears we all agree none of really know what lies on the other side of life with the exception of Elizabeth. I asked Elizabeth for her comments which she was so kind to reply. I wish we could get a couple more of her friends to join the discussion.

I am not sure about the pets but MRG'S reasoning sounds....well...reasonable.

Regarding my friend and fellow blogger, hopefully when you get to heaven, where ever and how ever that may be you won't want to kick ass and take names. But.....then again, who knows.

Now my friend Mal, has posted a comment that prompted more discussion.

Could Heaven be a happy place if someone there had a loved one in Hell?

Anybody care to take a shot at that one?

I need a day or so to think about that.


Anne Rettenberg LCSW said...

Sorry my comment was poorly worded. I meant,that the "afterlife" is the "life" you have in the memories of those who remember you. Actually perhaps what I really meant is that you live on through their lives, because depending on how you lived your life, the people whose lives you touched may have lives that were shaped by you or perhaps only continue because of you. So, their life is, in a way, your life, because it wouldn't be a life if you hadn't been there at one point. Hope I'm making sense.

Anonymous said...

I have four kids and this blogging thing is making my brain work harder than it is used too.
-In regards to pets... pets don't have souls no need for anything to go anywhere.
-dad always mixes things together, haven't you figured that out by now, so who cares
-Let's read Revelations an Daniel and then get back to this discussion
-My thought for this day is " This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it" One day at a time...but eventually we will be out of time so we better decide now what we choices we want to make sooo....

Anonymous said...

I had to post as anoymous because I forgot my password... figures... Leisty

ABNPOPPA said...

That's my daughter. She really did forget her password. I'll get her tomorrow. Micheal is working for her husband, the farmer, and Leisty and I are going shopping for bathroom floor tile. A little project I promised ABNMOMMA I would finish.

I don't know about the pets thing. If they give you pleasure on earth why not Heaven. Seems reasonable to me.


Anonymous said...

Jason says "Come on Gary! Use some scripture and back that up." And whats to differenciate between pets and all the other animals on earth. Pets are a worldy pleasure/ slightly annoying and messy! Ha ha!-Leisty

ABNPOPPA said...

Sent to me via email by my good friend and fellow blogger "Spitfire". Here is her comment.

I know what I believe, but am trying to find the Tanak portions to back it up. I'm glad you felt ABNMomma near you recently. I know that gives you comfort. And I can find nowhere in Tanak where it says Papa can't use the souls of those gone ahead to comfort those of us left behind. But I found plenty of places where it says He will comfort those that mourn....and then leaves the methods of that comfort a bit vague as to how it's to be accomplished. So I think He'd be able to use anyone, or anything to comfort us in sorrow.

ABNPOPPA said...

How silly of me. Must be getting old I forgot to leave Spitfire's blog address. It is:

Lutheran Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Destruction of the embryo in the mother's womb is a violation of the right to live which God has bestowed upon this nascent life. To raise the question whether we are here concerned already with a human being or not is merely to confuse the issue. The simple fact is that God certainly intended to create a human being and that this nascent human being has been deliberately deprived of his life. And that is nothing but murder.

Read more about this famous Lutheran Pastor at:

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