I am not quite sure what history book Elizabeth has been educated with however, the books and news articles posted on the web definitely indicates collaboration between North Vietnam and China. I agree North Vietnam may not have wanted to be under the thumb of China. It is undeniable that Communist China supported North Vietnam with material and men.
Again we are trying to judge decisions made in 1960's by today's standards. This not only unfair to the decision makers but energy that could be better spent trying to learn from the history of decisions. Now whether our government has improved in it's decision making process is definitely open for discussion. As to the time leading up to the Vietnam War and during it decisions were made on the best available intelligence and what was determined to be best for our county. This process holds true today.
I agree it is always best to gather information from those that are actually there. Living, seeing and hearing what is happening is much better than deciphering news article and broadcasts. But, how does one obtain such sources? It's not like you can pack up and live in Cairo, Baghdad, Tehran for a couple years. You must develop trusted sources that have been proven true beyond a shadow of a doubt. They must have a history of credibility. These types of sources are very hard to come by.
Everybody overseas cares about the United States. We are the police of the world and when in times of war, pestilence, dictatorship, and piracy on the high seas foreign countries request and accept our help. I firmly believe the United States has given freedom to more people on earth than any other country in the world. Foreigners come for free medical help, (Canada's birth boom at the US/Canada border), thousands of foreign college students a year are educated here and then go back to their counties and the United States is the most generous country on earth when it comes to disaster.
Most certainly other counties care about what the United States says and does. My son who is preparing for his second tour of duty, most likely in Iraq cites numerous occasions where citizen after citizen thanked him and his unit for coming to Iraq. Of course they would much rather be totally in charge. That will come some day in the future however, the vast majority of the populace is quite happy to accept American help.
I fear Elizabeth has been listening and believing too many people that have not done the, been there, done that, own the T-shirt. I am aware there are always a few out of the many that are not able to comprehend the long term investment needed to preserve freedom for all. Utopia is not a reality.
I somewhat agree that in order to know a country and understand their people it is best if one knows the language. For it only in sitting down and conversing over many hours that one develops a real relationship and can begin to garner real feeling and emotions. I have had that opportunity when stationed overseas many years ago. I went to the University of Erlangen and learned to speak German. By doing this I was able to live among the German people, shop in German stores, travel most of Europe and hang out in Guesthouses. Being a ripe 44 years of age I would ask Elizabeth if she has had this opportunity. If not, I would challenge Elizabeth to learn a language and spend some time in the Peace Corp or other organization that would allow the opportunity to see other cultures for herself.
The old adage of "birds of a feather" is good for feeling comfortable but, every now and then it's fun if a hawk drops by just to get the adrenalin pumping. You have to get out sometimes and enter the danger zone to learn and expand your intellect.
I was reading over a couple of the old comments and came upon a comment from MM that said the invitation still stands, then Elizabeth ask what invitation. I am not sure what they are talking about. Can someone help me figure this out? Did I miss something? The only invitation I know is for Elizabeth to do a guest post. How about it Elizabeth?
22 comments:
The mullahs are always referring to our way of life needing to be wiped off the Earth and replaced by Sharia law.
I am also curious as to whether or not Elizabeth has lived over seas.
I do have personal info in regards to hezbollah beyond seeing them building up here in SA. You see, my husband has family in Lebanon. (Lebanese/Mexican)
I also have a personal friend working in Baghdad, not with the military but doing mission work. Things are improving.
The blame for poor intel in the Middle East can be placed squarely on Bill Clinton. He stripped the military and intelligence agencies, ignored the many terrorist attacks against US citizens, which emboldened them to attempt 9/11.
As to other countries caring about what the US does, down here we have a Spanish saying,"When America sneezes the whole world gets a cold."
Pops, it was an invitation for her to come and meet me, my husband, and a few of our friends....you know like Cookie, Airborne Dad, along with a few my hubby could direct her to.
Thank you ladies for your comments. I know it most likely will be difficult for Elizabeth to go overseas for a while. It was not meant as a dig. I just hope she will expand her circle to people to get more than one side of the issue. I really think a couple trips to the VFW or American Legion would be good.
MM,
Thanks for the explanation. I wasn't sure what the "invitation" was about. As you know I have posted a couple other blogs for her to go to. I hope she does.
Weather here is miserable today. Cold, rain and windy and I am stuck inside! Anybody feeling sorry for me?
We can't be the police of the world. That's impossible. The US is 5 percent of the world's population. It isn't our job; it's the UN's job, not that they do it.
I lived in Turkey, India and France and in the past few years I spent time in Palestine, Central American and again in France...Moreover, I know a variety of Middle East specialists who worked for the CIA and the State Dept. Also, I live in New York City, where I have made friends with people from all over the world. Half the population here is foreign born.
There's no point in arguing further about Vietnam; the results speak for themselves. We lost, yet, Communism did not win.
JM: The mullahs find their counterpart in the Bill O'Reillys of this country. All of these people are demagogues who repeat inflammatory slogans to uneducated people who lap it up. Unfortunately there are always going to people who relish an "us and them" mentality. However, if we didn't back Israel's oppression of the Palestinians, and if we didn't support the corrupt and dictatorial governments of Egypt and Saudi Arabia, these mullahs would not have much of an audience.
"The mullahs find their counterpart in the Bill O'Reillys of this country."
you're kidding me right? I mean REALLY??? right??
ABNPoppa.
I deleted my own comment. :)
I keep coming back to try and understand how someone could say such a thing. It's incredible. I don't watch O'Rielly, but comparing him to a mullah????
Has he called for death and destruction of all Arabs like the mullahs call on us? Hes he sent out suicide bombers? Has he danced in the streets when thousand were killed by terrorist? Does he call for the maiming and abuse of women? Not even allow women to drive in many countries?
These mullahs have had an audience for centuries, even before our country existed and continued on to the present day. They will not suddenly love us for changing any of the things suggested here. They have hated and tried to destroy Western civilization for at least a 1000 years,
I am wondering if history is no longer taught in our schools!
"They have hated and tried to destroy Western civilization for at least a 1000 years,"
Citation please?
You mixed up so many disparate things in your comments, so many things that have little or nothing to do with each other, it is hard to reply.
No US demagogue would advocate suicide bombing because we don't need suicide bombers; we have an Army, a Navy, an Air Force, the Marines. Suicide bombers are used by people who don't have standing armies or as a desperate tactic when their armies have failed. That's quite a silly comment you made there.
Who called for the "maiming and abuse of women"? citation please.
I admit I don't watch O'REilly. I only know some of his quotes and frankly, they were so repugnant I basicall deleted them from my memory. I do have a memory of I think it was Glenn Beck asking a recently elected Muslim Member of Congress if he could prove he wasn't the "enemy." That was a bigoted, grossly disrespectful remark.
The anti-Americanism in the Middle East is based on two factors: Our support of Israel in their oppression of the Palestinians, and our support of the corrupt dictatorships of Egypt and Saudi Arabia, which oppress their own people. Those people who don't allow women to drive in Saudi Arabia are our ALLIES they are people our government SUPPORTS. It makes you angry; can you imagine how angry it makes people in those countries?
I notice you're repeating phrases that demagogues here have repeated: "Danced in the streets." Many people in the Middle East expressed condolences and horror over what happened on Sept. 11 but you don't know that because you have no communication with those people, and you memorize pat phrases instead of thinking for yourself, reading widely and analyzing cause and effect.
Out of curiosity I went and looked up some O'REilly quotes. I found he's primarily a racist and a homophobe and is also ignorant of the First Amendment:
"When you call us, ladies and gentlemen, just so you know, we do have your phone number, and if you say anything untoward, obscene, or anything like that, Fox security will then contact your local authorities, and you will be held accountable."
3. "I just wish Katrina had only hit the United Nations building, nothing else, just had flooded them out, and I wouldn't have rescued them."
"I couldn't get over the fact that there was no difference between Sylvia's restaurant and any other restaurant in New York City. I mean, it was exactly the same, even though it's run by blacks… There wasn't one person in Sylvia's who was screaming, 'M-Fer, I want more iced tea.' You know, I mean, everybody was -- it was like going into an Italian restaurant in an all-white suburb in the sense of people were sitting there, and they were ordering and having fun. And there wasn't any kind of craziness at all."
While hosting a charity event for an urban school back in 2003 where an African-American singing group called "The Best Men" were late to show up, O'Reilly quipped to the largely black audience, "Does anyone know where the Best Men are? I hope they're not in the parking lot stealing our hubcaps."
“That's my advice to all homosexuals, whether they're in the Boy Scouts, or in the Army or in high school: Shut up, don't tell anybody what you do, your life will be a lot easier."
That last one sounds like a not-so-veiled threat of violence.
I do not have time to educate you. Google it for yourself.
As to 'dancing on the streets', I am not repeating anything! I saw it myself, live and in person.
I do not need to defend Reilly, I think he can do that on his own, but your quotes are laughable. Most are assuredly out of context, but whatever. You prefer to see hate and racism where you wish while ignoring it elsewhere.
The anti-Americanism in the Middle East is the same as it has been for over 1000 years. Just please read some history.
We must support the only democracy in the middle east. Has Israel always done the right thing, perhaps not. No nation ever does, but they are leagues ahead in the area of civil rights than the Arab states.
As you say, we have a military! Thank God!!!!
"The anti-Americanism in the Middle East is the same as it has been for over 1000 years."
That comment is a GEM. I am going to remember it. It is the funniest thing I have heard in a long time!
ABNPoppa, This will be long by necessity, sorry. I hope everyone has a great Thanksgiving. I will end my comments with this one.
A short time line ,
331 B.C.-Alexander the Great conquers Persia. This began the conflict between Europe and Persia.
614 B.C- Jerusalem was taken by the Persians
638- Jerusalem was taken by the Arab Moslems
circa 970-Emperors Nicephorus Phocas and John Zimisces attack Moslems in what is now
Turkey
1095-1300 (circa) the Crusades
1090- The Persians out of necessity invent the most effective covert warfare known at the time, The Assassins. This terrorized the Europeans.
1620-1798 - The East Indies was conquered by the Dutch
1664- Persians and Russians at war
1722- Persians and Russians at war again
1801-1815- The Barbary Wars (The Shores of Tripoli) This was the first time the U.S. of A became involved in the ancient war between the Europeans and Moslems
1820- Oman and Qatar are controlled by the British
1830-1857-The French conquer Algeria
1834-1859-Russia conquers the Caucasus
1839- Adan is taken by Britain
1873-1887-Russia takes Uzbekistan
1882- Egypt is taken by Britain
1885-1890- Italy conquers Eritrea
1898- Britain conquers the Sudan
1900- The French conquer Chad
1909-1910- The Russians and the British invade Persia
1941- The Russians and British, once again invade Persia
1946-The Russians withdraw from Persia which leaves it to the British
1953- With the help of the Americans and the British, the Shah is installed.
1953-1979- The Moslem population of Iran begin an underground movement to remove the
influence of "The Great Satan"(USA) and the Shah.
1979- The Revolution. The Shah is overthrown and 52 Americans are taken hostage for
444 days. This begins America's war with Iran. The Islamist in Iran begin to
perfect the covet warfare they have practiced over eight centuries.
1983- The U. S. takes the side of the Christians in Lebanon. The U.S. shells Moslem villages involved and who were backed by the Iranian regime. The terrorist attack the marine barracks and kill 241 marines. (This is when my husband joined the Marine Corp)
1984- 16 ships were damaged by mines in the Red Sea.
1985- Islamic leader is killed by car bomb in Lebanon.( most likely with US aid)
1987- US allies with Saddam Hussein (God forgive us!) against the Iranians ( clearly a lesser of two evils at the time)
1988- Pan Am Flight 103 blown up over Scotland
1989- 2 Libyan jets shot down
1990- Iraq invades Kuwait
1991-Iran buys Chinese technology for enriching uranium
1992- There are reports that Iran buys 3 Soviet nuclear weapons from Kazakhstan. Iran also begins buying Russian subs.
1993- World Trade Center blast. A middle eastern man kills 5 people entering the CIA Headquarters.
1994- Iranian Revolutionary Guards begin meeting with Islamic activists in South America. Russians with nuclear expertise are known to be working in Iran.
1994 -war between Chechens ( Moslems) and Russians.
1995- Israelis say the Iranians will have nuclear capabilities within a number of years.
1996- A terrorist bomb blasts kill 19 Americans in Saudi Arabia
1997- Robert Kaplan, a middle east expert, says Iran has a "shop till you drop" policy regarding nuclear weapons.
1998- War between Moslems and Serbs (Christians) in Kosovo
- bombing of 2 US embassies in Africa by Moslems
2000- Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed.
2001- 9/11, War in Afghanistan
2002-Karachi, Pakistan: bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.
2003-Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.
2004- Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
- Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
-Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.
2005- Amman, Jordan: Suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.
2006-Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy was foiled.
2007-Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy was fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.
- Algeria: More than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.
This is not a new war. It is but a battle in a very old war.
Today 20,000 Muslims attacked a Christian Church in Cairo, trapping about 1,000 Christians inside, while in India, jihadi goups attacked hotels and tourist spots looking for westerners to take hostage, killing 80 and wounding over 900.
I don't think Bill O-Reilly's physically attacked anyone yet, though. I'm just sayin'...
Ooop, bad 2nd link above. Here's the India link.
I misspoke by saying anti-Americanism, It should be anti-Western, Anti- Judeo-Christian, anti democracy...
JM: Thanks for the history summary. None of it supports the viewpoints you've professed. On the contrary, the facts support my position:
"The U. S. takes the side of the Christians in Lebanon. The U.S. shells Moslem villages involved and who were backed by the Iranian regime"
Maybe you want to re-read this point you cited? Do you think that when we meddle in other countries' internal affairs, and bomb people who didn't do anything to us, it might, ahem, make people angry??
I really implore you, JM, to take a look at the facts you cited:
"1820- Oman and Qatar are controlled by the British
1830-1857-The French conquer Algeria
1834-1859-Russia conquers the Caucasus
1839- Adan is taken by Britain
1873-1887-Russia takes Uzbekistan
1882- Egypt is taken by Britain
1885-1890- Italy conquers Eritrea
1898- Britain conquers the Sudan
1900- The French conquer Chad
1909-1910- The Russians and the British invade Persia"
You are describing a history of invasion, occupation and colonialism. Doesn't that...make people angry??
Happy Thanksgiving ABNPoppa!
Happy Thanks giving to all of my fellow bloggers, JM, MM, Elizabeth, and what appears to be a potential follower, FJ. We hope you will continue to follow Coservative Outrage and comment often. There is no editing on this site unless somebody drops words "I" deem inappropriate for children and or just plain mean spirited.
Like I have said before, no, spitin' in the eyes, no gougin' and no hittin' where it ain't proper.
Sorry I haven't responded in the past couple of days ABNPOPPA caught up with the Flu bug and been a little under the weather. The good news is I am back.
God Bless America where we all can express our views in a free county without fear of reprisal.
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