My Rule for Life

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.

Sunday, September 27, 2009

Have you no shame

A couple years ago when Mahmoud Ahmadinejad gave a speech he said the Holocaust never happened and he wanted to kill all the Jews. This week at the UN he continued on the same theme. His hate filled speech complete with denials of the Holocaust are without equivalency. He is, the same as Joseph Stalin, the same as Adolf Hitler, in one word EVIL. This is a man that Presidential candidate Obama said he would sit down and talk with with NO pre-conditions. Pre-conditions were not used by Neville Chamberlain and President Obama is in the same situation. Continue to ignore the 600 pound gorilla in the living room or take decisive action. Pre-conditions with this moron are about as productive as a steer in a herd of cows, ain't nothing going to happen. Why waste your time away from television.

Mr. President what were you thinking? Were you thinking?

Mr. President, if you can tear yourself away from the TV appearances, the union dinners, and now, the flight to procure the Olympics could you take a few minutes to read the speech given to the UN by President Netanyahu of Israel. Here is the link SPEECH

Mr. President, Have you no shame...

47 comments:

Adrienne said...

Pops - Obama is a sociopath. He could care less about anyone or anything except himself. Have you forgotten that he threw his own grandma under the bus?

ABNPOPPA said...

No Adrienne, I remember what he did to Grandma. My fear is he is going to throw our brave young Warriors under the bus if he doesn't get off his you know what!

Thanks for stopping by. Hope this finds you well. Currently camped out near Indianapolis on way back home from Kansas City.

Most Rev. Gregori said...

Actually, I believe that Obama intends to throw the entire country under the bus.

We need a president like Netanyahu.

Spitfire said...

I have to admit, I agree with Rev. Gregori...In fact, I'm almost ashamed to admit that after I heard Netanyahu last week, I told Dodi I wished we were Israeli!!! That I'd just listened to a REAL leader's speech....whereas the little of Obama's speech I heard just made me ill....

Safe travels home Pops. And thank you for your wishes for the High Holiday. Now enjoying a delightful cup of coffee! Who knew how much I'd miss it in 25 hours.LOL!

Shalom, and may your new year be blessed beyond belief! Spitfire

MightyMom said...

nope, no shame at all!!

Subvet said...

B.O. knows about shame the way a prostitute knows about virginity, i.e. had it at one time but can't quite remember what it was like.

Elizabeth said...

What is your solution? Should we drop a nuclear bomb on Iran and kill the thousands of civilians there who are protesting and trying to overthrow the government?

Elizabeth said...

Netanyahu presides over a regime that for 40 years has disenfranchised millions of people and denied them their basic human rights. Well actually in a way we are like Israel because we did the same thing to the Native Americans...however, they now at least have citizenship.

Elizabeth said...

Explain to me when it was that Obama threw his grandmother under a bus? It seems to me that this would be murder, and he would be in prison.

ABNPOPPA said...

Elizabeth,

Ref: Comment #1
Ever heard of the Mossad? OK, calm down. A real decision and a real blockade of the country would be a start. Only problem is the sicopath in charge of the country doesn't care about his people on his ego. But that's a start.

Comment #2 Israel was established as a Jewish state in 1948 I believe under/with the blessing of the UN and other countries. If any basic human rights that have been denied please tell me who, what and when. If they are not Jews then they, like our Native Americans had the right to move. I don't believe we have forcibly kept any Native Americans on the reservation for quite awhile. I will em The Local Malcontent, full blood Choctaw and ask him for clarification regarding that.

Comment # 3

It's nice to see you still have a since of humor. Yes, if he literally threw her under the bus he should be in prison. Then again he lived in Chicago and look how long it took to get Al Capone!

My personal comment. Another war with young American Warriors dying. Why? Because a Democrat President can't make a decision to let the military take care of the wars and this is a war, just undeclared at the present, and let the politicians kiss the babies.

Good to hear from you.

PS, regarding the Native America having their rights denied, is there anything you like about America?

Pops

Harry said...

Elizabeth,
I believe it is the Israelis who are denied their basic human right to live in peace. They've been suffering under vicious unprovoked attacks from the surrounding Islamic majority since the 1920s, you know, stuff like wars, massacres, terrorist attacks. You've even excused some of the violence against Jews. Remember the Hateul family?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

If anyone is disenfranchised, it's due to the corrupt terrorist leadership of Hamas and Fatah. Not only do they refuse to live in peace with a Jewish state, they can't even live in peace with each other. But for some reason, I read of very little protest when Hamas and Fatah members were throwing each other off of rooftops during their civil war. Nor was there any outrage recently when Hamas members raided a mosque with guns blazing to battle members of an Al-Quaeda offshoot.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8202553.stm

Israel is tiny and makes a convenient scapegoat for all of the self-defeating pathologies of the surrounding Muslim countries who keep the Palestinians in their degraded state. And it makes a great scapegoat for those who don't want to face the real violence coming from a "tiny minority" of 1.2 (or is it 1.5?) billion Muslims.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=farfour+the+mouse&search_type=&aq=0&oq=farfour

ABNPOPPA said...

Thank you Harry. You addressed that much better than I.

Pops

Elizabeth said...

The early zionist militias used the 1948 war to kick 750,000 Palestinians out of their homes. Many of these people now live in squalid refugee camps in Lebanon and Syria to this day. Their homes and belongings were stolen and they never received any compensation. The palestinians have lived under Israeli military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza for 40 years. Gaza students who win full scholarships to US universities aren't allowed to leave Gaza to attend the universities. Do you really think if Israel was interested in preventing terrorism it would keep people in a ghetto and deprive them of hope?

ABNPOPPA said...

You all know I love my liberal friend, Elizabeth like a brother. A real brother and or friend would not let their sibling drive while intoxicated or give up on them. I won't let Liz, drive or give up on her. She's really a Conservative trying to shed her liberal ways and doesn't know how.

The hardest part for me is why she never addresses direct questions like, is there anything you like about America? That was in my last comment to her and she just dodged it entirely. Those liberal thoughts are deep inside but I know we can cure them with patience and understanding.

Pops

Harry said...

Elizabeth,
During a war of attempted genocide by the surrounding Muslim states against the nascent Jewish state, 750,000 (or so) Muslims did loose their homes. Not all were forced out. Some left of their own accord to make room for the fedayeen to drive the Jews into the sea. But do you know what? Some of the Muslims stayed in their homes. And their descendants are now citizens of Israel who enjoy the same rights as any other Israeli citizen.

"Squalid refugee camps" were the wages paid to the Arabs who listened to their genocidal leaders. They are maintained by Lebanon and Syria in their current wretched state by the governments of both of those nations in order to maintain generations of Israel-hating pawns.

Isn't interesting though, that around 850,000 Jews were kicked out of Muslim nations because Israel succeeded in its first self-defense trial? They left with only the clothes on their back and helped build a nation. They were allowed to use their talents to create the only nation in the Middle East that has contributed anything of lasting value to the world. And a perverse world hates them for it. Other than that hatred, nobody thinks of them.

As for the last 40 years, Israel offered to give it all back immediately after the 6 Day War in exchange for peace. We all know the results of that offer. Israel did give back the Sinai and Gaza. (Of course, they didn't give Gaza back in an approved manner, so they are condemned for it.) Egypt didn't want Gaza and has even built a wall between Gaza and Egypt. I wonder why. And why do no "human rights" organizations ever complain about it? And do you think they will complain about the recent episode of Shiite Muslims being kicked out of the Sunni UAE because they're Shiite?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gpbJtzhPRBcPxkozZ9x3xcuOKo0w

Me neither.

If the people of Gaza ever have any hope at all, it will be because their leaders, you know, the terrorist group, Hamas, decides to trade their bombs, rockets, guns, and Jew-hating ideology for building implements and peaceful coexistence. The constant daily rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza into Israel are a losing strategy for promoting peace.

Harry said...

Pops,
You're welcome. It's a constant battle countering the thoughtless Israel hatred from people who should know better, but still support terrorism over civilization.

The Local Malcontent said...

To Elizabeth: I do not know you, other than by your words here, so this will not be any kind of personal attack, other than to say that your analogy to U.S. treatment of American Indians is off track and blatently wrong.

In truth, the United States gives her Native children the very same opportunities to become whatever they individually wish to become, as she does to any of her citizens. Every American, of any background and of any race is free and uninhibited in pursuing their ambitions through drive, initiative and planning.
Indians like myself and my wife do not need or want any kind of special treatment.
And we have it.

Where you may have been mislead in your thinking and negative association herein, is by the method the U.S. conquered the magnificent tribes of the heartland like the Sioux, the Arapaho and the Cheyanne for example.
~ my response to that would only be "yeah, so?" Not unlike Europeans conquering the Aboriginals in Australia, or Brazil or Colombia or anywhere. Oh, Canada.

The difference, the big difference, IS, that American Indians have given up much hope, because the American government chose to spoonfeed some tribes, with everything from free food, healthcare and housing. Yes, I have been to some reservations in Arizona and in Montana and the Dakotas where hope is absent, where drive and ambition is unheard of. It wasn't always that way-- until the nanny state government became involved.

What you fail to witness most of all, is that: What Indian reservations look like today, is what our present nanny state government has planned, in store for everyone, pretty soon. Imagine Los Angeles or Boston or Miami or Dallas as a great big Indian reservation, like those in Wounded Knee, South Dakota.
It'll happen, with your benign, encouraging endorsement.


Let's get back to the original topic of Israel, the Palistinians, and Netanyahu now.
You are right~! Identical situation in every way~! Instead of emphasizing more (because Israel has for decades) that the Palistinians should become individually successful and wealthy, thus becoming a beacon of success to the world, the Palistinians have groveled in squalor, complaining that Israel hasn't done enough for them, other than provide them motor fuel, electricity, food stuffs, and medical supplies ALL AT NO CHARGE.

IS THIS EVEN BEGINNING TO SOUND FAMILIAR, ELIZABETH??

And Israel is thanked by the Palistinians with deadly mortor rockets, bombings and terrorism.
(remember too, that the country of Jordan was the first to kick out the Palistinians-- no one wanted them)

I'd urge you to do some unbiased research into the Jewish state, Elizabeth, and find some truth.
Likewise, American Indian heritage and national loyalty.
Ever hear of the Choctaw and Navajo code-talkers who helped win WWII for the Allies??

ABNPOPPA said...

Mal,

Thank you for commenting to Elizabeth. There is no debating your close personal knowledge of the Native American's history. Excellent parrallel of the Israeli/Hamas story.

Thanks for a thoughtful and factual comment.

Pops

Elizabeth said...

I couldn't make any sense of Malcontent's essay. The comparison I was trying to make was between the genocide of the Native Americans that occurred in the US in the 18th and 19th centuries and the expulsion fo the Palestinians in 1948. As for the absurd comment someone made about Palestinians leaving "voluntarily" sure when there's war refugees often voluntarily leave an area, but they expect that when the fighting is over they will be able to come back. The reason the Palestinians haven't been able to come back is because Israel appropriated their land for new Jewish immigrants. As for today, I pointed out that Native Americans today are US citizens and I was trying to CONTRAST this with the fact that Palestinians are not citizens...I think I made a mistake in trying to talk about too many issues in one blog comment and it simply overloaded some people's mental faculties.

Elizabeth said...

Harry,
Gee, if Israel wanted to "give it all back for peace" why didn't that happen??? I seem to recall agonizing negotiations presided over by Jimmy Carter just to get Israel out of the Sinai...Harry seems to be living in an alternate universe.

Elizabeth said...

I sometimes see a psychiatric symptom in this comment section called "flight of ideas." One topic abruptly shifts to another that is only tangentially related to the topic under discussion. Either it's a symptom or people are doing it on purpose to derail the conversation, I'm not sure.

ABNPOPPA said...

Elizabeth,

I'm sorry, but I understood quite clearly both your and Malcontents comment and relationship between the two issues. My only thought on this is that Israel was approved by a world governing body, aka, the United Nations. The issue for the American Indian was don in it's entirely but the United States government.

Regarding the leaving voluntarily I believe that referenced to 1948 when they were given an option of staying under the new Israeli government that was about to be established.

As for the psychiatric symptoms on the blog, well had as it may be perhaps you should look at some of your comments and quit practicing your profession when you are not on the clock.

By the way, if you don't all ready know I sent you a response em.

Pops

Elizabeth said...

"1948 when they were given an option of staying under the new Israeli government that was about to be established."

I'm not sure what you are referring to...there was a war that led to the establishment of the Israeli state in 1948...Arabs who were still living in the new Israelis state were allowed to stay, but this was after the 750,000 of them had either fled or been forced out of their homes. So the remainder who were allowed to stay were a minority.

The Local Malcontent said...

And yet, there's another person unwilling to deal with reality.

Harry said...

Elizabeth,
I am resisting the almost overwhelming impulse to reply to insults with more insults. I've learned over the years that once the arguments of Israel bashers are shattered, one of the tactics they use to save face is hurling insults. So OK, enjoy your insults. It doesn't change the fact that you're wrong.

It's also interesting that you use the passive voice when referring to Arab violence against Israel (if you acknowledge it at all). You claim "there was a war that led to the establishment of the Israeli state in 1948". No there wasn't. Israel declared itself a sovereign nation and then immediately had to fight for its life as it was invaded by surrounding Arab nations. Get it? The Arabs attacked the new Jewish State. The Arabs started the war - and complain to this day that it didn't end in the manner they wished it to end - with the Jews being driven into the sea. And you support that?

Why didn't peace break out when Israel abandoned Gaza? Hmm, maybe it had something to do with the constant terror attacks, rocket attacks, and mortar attacks (which I've mentioned before, and I suppose I will have to mention again before you admit to it).

If you don't understand what The Local Malcontent wrote, it may be because your irrational hatred of Israel is damaging your comprehension abilities, just as you can't see (can't acknowledge?) Arab/Muslim violence against Jews. You also don't seem to be able to comprehend that the Muslims who didn't flee during the 1948 war have been Israeli citizens ever since. The ones who did flee were never given Jordanian, Syrian, Lebanese, or Egyptian citizenship, but we've already talked about that. And yes, the ones who left were not let back in. Why should they be? Sometimes in life, one has to live with the consequences of one's decisions. The ones who stayed are a minority. Is that a problem?

If I'm living in an alternate universe, it is an alternate moral universe. In my universe, people who build civilizations, who use their brains and their God-given abilities to create advances in technology, agriculture, and medicine, create a thriving society in the midst of a desert, surrounded by people imbued with a pathological hatred that allows them to use their children as cannon fodder by teaching them that martyrdom against Jews is their greatest goal, are the good guys. The afore mentioned haters, who have created nothing of value to contribute to the advancement of civilization are what's known as - you will excuse the term - evil.

I can't help noticing that, as others have mentioned, you do not answer most of the arguments against your position, but come up with new ones and personal attacks. That's another tactic of Israel bashers.

The Local Malcontent said...

The Hebron Massacre. 1929.
80 years ago, and a full 20 years before the present state of Israel, the current, popular excuse for Palistinian supporters' whinings.
Islam has always been a mental disease, unrealized by some of the leading minds in Psychology.

Elizabeth said...

Harry's comments have numerous examples of the tangents I was referring to. I wasn't discussing the behavior of "Arab states" I was discussing the fate of the native Palestinians, who were in many cases simply expelled from their villages by the zionists.

" The ones who did flee were never given Jordanian, Syrian, Lebanese, or Egyptian citizenship"

We weren't talking about the policies of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon or Egypt. We were talking about the policies of Israel.

Harry, your idealized depiction of Israeli culture and your racist non-description of Arab Palestinian culture

"people who build civilizations, who use their brains and their God-given abilities to create advances in technology, agriculture, and medicine, create a thriving society in the midst of a desert, surrounded by people imbued with a pathological hatred"

is beneath contempt.
The Palestinians had a culture and society that was doing quite well for hundreds of years before zionist settlers moved to the area. They grew food and raised livestock in this supposed "desert." The Palestinians survived invasions and occupations by the Ottomans and the British. Earlier Arab thinkers were known for their achievements in mathematics and science. Meanwhile, the supposedly advanced Jewish state is sucking $3 billion in US aid every year, that's $1,000 for every man, woman and child in Israel...while the people of Gaza live under a blockade that prevents them from importing basic building materials and prevents their students, doctors and scientists from traveling abroad for professional conferences. You are just repeating racist slogans.

Harry said...

Elizabeth,
So now we know that you have reached the end of your (almost) rational arguments. You have "gone nuclear". Now I'm a racist for pointing out some of the pathologies of "Palestinian culture." Go ahead and google Farfour the Mouse, Nahoul the Bee, the Jew-Eating Rabbit to see what passes for children's entertainment in Gaza and the West Bank. Then complain about racism. You won't of course. It would force you to confront the unpleasant truth of the depraved society that you champion. You won't let yourself view anything that goes against your twisted world view in which Israel, the only free society in the Middle East is viewed as evil and the impediment to peace, while the terrorists of Hamas and Fatah, who turn their own children into martyrdom-seeking, Jew-hating monsters are victims.

If my nondescription of Palestinian culture bothers you, please give me some history of that imaginary culture. Are there any books about it? Any anthropological studies? Magazine articles? Sure, there have been people living there for thousands of years. Until Zionists began moving in an improving the land in the early 1900s, the population was pretty sparse. Read some of the travelogues of the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries.

Jews have had a continuous presence there for over 3000 years, Christians since - well, you know. Muslim invaders came in the 8th century. Muslims only began referring to themselves as "Palestinians" since the 1960s. (Although there was a Palestinian brigade that fought with the British against the Nazis in WWII. They majority were Jewish. Is it racist to say that?)

Israel is only a "supposed desert"? Israelis would be surprised to hear that. So would the early zionists who caused the desert to bloom. They brought advanced farming methods with them that allowed more land to be farmed. That caused a rise in the Arab population as jobs and food became more plentiful. And you know how Israel-bashers sometimes accuse Israel of taking the best land? The didn't take the best. They created the best, which until the first intifada, also benefitted the local Muslims. And Israelis are still making agricultural advances. Remember the greenhouses that were donated to Gaza (and were promptly destroyed by the Gazans, even though I know it's racist to point that out) when Israel forced all of the Jews out? And the advances in drip irrigation and desalinization pioneered by Israel? They're all methods to increase food production in that geographic area known as a desert. They are also signs of an advanced civilization, much like other contributions to the world as evidenced in the wikipedia article at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Israel

And here's an interesting video on "the supposedly advanced Jewish state." Pay special attention to the medical portion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saeky9I5T9c

And your "Palestinians" have contributed . . . what? And don't waste any more effort claiming: "Earlier Arab thinkers were known for their achievements in mathematics and science." We're speaking of Palestinians, and we know how you despise being led off topic in an argument.

Harry said...

Elizabeth (continued),

Israel gets $3 billion. The Palestinians get a combined $7.7 billion from the international community. And what have they done with it? Israel does let in supplies into Gaza, except those that can be used as weapons. I bet you're wondering why. It's those rockets and bombs they keep building, you know, the ones that you refuse to acknowledge.

So why don't Gazans just import supplies from Egypt? Oh yeah, Egypt built a wall between Egypt and Gaza. It's the blockade that nobody cares about, because it doesn't involve Israel.

I'm sure you are objecting to the introduction of Egypt into this discussion, but it is germane to this discussion. Just as earlier, I mentioned policies of Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon in order to show the double standard Israel-bashers live by, where Israel is always guilty of "oppression", while any other Muslim country can do much worse and have their real crimes whitewashed or ignored. Like the name calling, the anti-Israel double standard is standard fare of the Israel haters. Oh, and so is repeating Hamas and Fatah talking points without regard to their veracity. You might want to work on that.

Harry said...

In other news, a scientist from the "supposedly advanced Jewish state", is sharing the Nobel Prize in chemistry.

From the article, "STOCKHOLM – Two Americans and an Israeli scientist won the 2009 Nobel Prize in chemistry on Wednesday for atom-by-atom mapping of the protein-making factories within cells — a feat that has spurred the development of antibiotics."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091007/ap_on_re_eu/eu_nobel_chemistry

That's what happens when talent is used for creation instead of destruction. Instead of envying the success of others, you create for yourself, something the Palestinians and the Israel-haters need to learn.

ABNPOPPA said...

WOW! What a strong debate Elizabeth and Harry have going on. Supporting facts and articles are always good and help support you opinion. Although these two are carrying the discussion load I know, via email, that others are reading and learning. That my friends it is all about.

Thanks for keepping it clean and free of personal attacks. The ol' Sgt Friday theme, "just the facts, just the facts"

Pops

Elizabeth said...

Again, Harry, you rely on irrelevancies and straw men. I never claimed Israel hasn't produced scientists or developed agricultural methods. However this has no relevance to the issues under discussion.

You obviously have no knowledge of the Palestinians. I have been there twice, looked at textbooks and visited kindergartens and watched hours of local TV as it was the only thing playing on the TV where I was staying. You seem to believe--astonishingly--that the Palestinians do nothing all day but produce cartoons teaching kids to be suicide bombers. I am not denying that these things happened; I am pointing out that claiming that Palestinian culture consists of the few inflammatory examples you've dredged up is ridiculous and yes, racist. Racism is typically the practice of making vast generalizations based on a few examples of bad behavior, which is exactly what you are doing.

I notice you didn't comment on my comment about the Palestinian doctors and scientists who are unable to travel abroad. Perhaps you are still reeling from the information that Palestine has doctors and scientists. Did you know that if a woman in the West Bank wants to marry a man in Gaza, she has to be smuggled in through a tunnel, and she will likely never see her family in the West Bank again because she cannot leave Gaza? Explain to me how this protects Israel. How is it that people who have never committed crimes are sent to a giant open air prison (Gaza) for the rest of their lives?

Elizabeth said...

By the way, Harry, did you know that many Arabs (including Palestinians) are Christians? You seem to be confusing "Arab" and "Muslim." Did you know that Israel persecutes Christian Palestinians exactly as they persecute Muslim Palestinians?

Yes, I am aware that some Jews continued to live in Palestine since the beginning but I don't understand your understanding of the term "Palestinian" which is the same word as "Philistine" which is a Roman word; needless to say, it is quite old.

Elizabeth said...

I made an error in an earlier comment, $3 billion is $500 for each of the 6 million Israeli citizens. HOwever Israel also receives enormous help from American Jews through voluntary donations.

ABNPOPPA said...

Elizabeth,

Thank you for the correction. Keyword in your statement is VOLUNTARY.

Pops

Harry said...

Elizabeth,
When you referred to the "supposedly advanced Jewish state", you invited my equally sarcastic response. If you really don't see the advances of Israel vs. what Palestinians have contributed, you are truly willfully blind. Even tough medical cases in Gaza and the West Bank are sent to Israel. Sometimes Palestinian terrorists take advantage of this. Remember the Palestinian woman caught carrying a bomb to the hospital that was treating her for burns suffered at her home?

When you visited Gaza, I'm sure you saw absolutely everything there was to see, and I'm sure that your hosts were totally honest with you in every respect. Because we know that all dictatorial societies are completely open an honest. Right? What could they possibly be hiding? Go back and watch the videos I recommended in previous comments. Whether they're on for 24 hours, or sporadically, they are still produced by their freely elected terrorist government in order to indoctrinate their children. Go to: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/300355/the_hamas_terror_exhibition_at_nablus_university/

It features a video of a Hamas art exhibit at Nablus University. It's simply to die for. If your brave enough to watch it, ask yourself, how many "few inflammatory examples" does it take to become a pattern and and an integral part of the culture? How many thousands of rockets and mortars (which you ignore every time I mention them) make Palestinian violence more than a "few inflammatory examples"? As I pointed out previously, there are more than a "few inflammatory examples" of local Muslim (they didn't call themselves Palestinians until the 1960s) on Jews violence going back to the 1880s.

I didn't comment on only one of your points? You've ignored most of mine in order to bring new anti-Israel charges. As for your poor, abused Fulbright scholars, there is more information at this link: http://www.nysun.com/foreign/congressman-asks-terrorist-screening-of-gaza/80407/ Read the article, and then ask yourself, how do you know which are the terrorists? They don't wear insignias, you know. (Recall the previously mentioned Palestinian woman on her way to blow up the hospital where she was being treated).

It's kind of like (and I know you will be bothered and confused because I'm momentarily leaving Israel proper) going to the airport these days. We all have to go through ridiculous security procedures to try and head off Islamic terrorists. If (here I go again) the Palestinians are so upset with not being able to travel, why don't they simply agree to live in peace with that Jewish state in their neighborhood? Instead of lobbing rockets and mortars, instead of maintaining a terrorist state with the billions of dollars they receive yearly from the international community (which you ignored) spend those billions on the creation of infrastructure. They could even rebuild their economy that's been in shambles ever since they began the first intifada. Then the Israelis wouldn't have to play the "Which Ones are the Terrorist?" game. But it's much more important to murder Israelis. (Why not end all government aid to both sides and see who is still functioning in a week? Voluntary aid to Israel will continue. That's part of living in a free society. You can donate your money to legal causes.)

Harry said...

Elizabeth,
Part II,
And if you weren't so hung up on trying to assert the morality and the victimhood of the Palestinian culture, you could have figured all of that out yourself. If Gaza is an "open air prison" it's what the Gazans created for themselves. But wait! Why don't they escape through Egypt? Oh, that's right! Another point that you repeatedly ignore: Egypt has built that wall (which you ignore) between them and Gaza, which Egypt used to occupy, just as Jordan used to occupy the West Bank, but due to the double standard between Israel and its genocidal enemies, nobody ever cared about those occupations. Nobody cares that Jews couldn't worship in their E. Jerusalem holy sites. Now, in Israeli hands, Jerusalem is open to Muslims, Christians, and sometimes to Jews, that is, when Palestinians aren't throwing rocks at Jews because of some stupid rumor started by a local imam or government official. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1254673321709

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-1266028.html

http://209.189.226.235/stories/021107/world_20070211036.php

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1254673319539&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Would these qualify as a "few more inflammatory examples?" They sure are easy to find.

Don't take this the wrong way, but your persecution argument is stupid. Look at the statistics and you will see that the Christian Palestinian population outside of Israel is shrinking as they are being persecuted by their Muslim neighbors. In Israel, Christian, both Arab and non-Arab are doing fine. When you read about the despair during the Christmas season in Bethlehem - under Muslim control, you can also read about the Christmas joy in the Israeli city of Nazareth. More here: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1228728163698&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

When you get down to it, Israeli Jews are also persecuted by the local Muslim population as evidenced by the constant provocation and outright violence (which you continue to ignore, except whey you whitewash it).

You still haven't referred me to any good sources of Palestinian history, culture, etc. But since you brought up differences, Arabs are originally from the Arabian peninsula, and only came to the area when they invaded the previously Christian area in the early days of Islam and its jihad across Asia, N. Africa, and parts of Europe.

Once again, (and I'll type slowly this time) population in the area was sparse (but also included Jews and Christians) until the Zionists came and made it livable. Then more Muslims moved in to take advantage of Jewish advances.

And yes, the word Palestine is old. Palestinians only adopted that as their identity in the 1960s. Now they expect everyone to believe their hinted-at-but-not-yet-documented history. The ancient Philistines have nothing to do with modern day "Palestinians." Go do your homework.

Elizabeth said...

There is an almost total blockade on Gaza. You don't seem to want to believe this, but it's true. It's absurd to talk about lack of development in Palestinian society unless you take into account the almost total blockade of Gaza and the partial blockade of the W. Bank. You clearly have no knowledge of these things and I cannot write a book or a 6 page magazine article here to explain it to you. You obviously have no interest in learning anything new that would challenge your idealization of Israel.

Arabs in Israel are discriminated against. The children go to separate schools, adults are banned from certain professions--it's similar to the Jim Crow laws of the old South in the U.S.

People commit terrorism when they have lost hope of enacting change in other ways. Why have the Palestinians lost hope? You do not ask this question because you do not care. You believe the Jews are a superior race and that the Palestinians are an inferior race. It is impossible to argue with someone who is a racist. You keep trying to steer this discussion back to your position that Jews are superior and the Palestinians have an inferior culture. This is a racist position and also one of your distraction techniques. People deserve human rights regardless of how many scientists their community produced. Or at least that is what most of humanity believes. Racists do not believe this. The Nazis believed the Jews were inferior, hence they believed the Jews had no rights. It is not really possible to argue with these type of positions. There is therefore not much more that I can say to you..

Harry said...

Elizabeth,
Blockade or not, Gazans are still not concerned enough to accept the existence of Israel. They are obviously still able to get weapons galore. And you never explained why you are so unconcerned about the Egyptian blockade. Dodging the point? You are quite nonchalant about the decades of violence against Jews and Israel. (More on that later.)

Please tell me which jobs Palestinians are banned from. After the recent spate of heavy machinery attacks on Israeli citizens, I see why they might be discouraged from going into construction. Also, if I understand correctly, Muslims are not required to serve in the Israeli army. Discrimination or special privilege? Separation of schools – don’t Jews, Christians, and Muslims have their own neighborhoods, even their own cities and villages? Hasn’t this gone back centuries? Muslims have representation in the Israeli Knesset. Some of the Islamic representatives even use this position to denounce Israel and Israeli practices. Muslims who speak out against Hamas are shot as collaborators, after a “fair” trial of course. And if you want to talk about banning – Jews are banned from living in Gaza. Why is it that it’s OK for Muslims to live in the Jewish nation, but Jews are not allowed to live in Gaza or the West Bank? Isn’t that racist? You’ll probably avoid that question.

I never ever said that Jews were a superior race or the Palestinians inferior. That’s absurd. I did say and I will say it again, that the Jews of Israel have unquestionably created a society that is superior to the one created by the alleged Palestinians. As I have stated previously, the local Muslims could create the same thing the Israelis built. How? Stop working so hard to destroy Israel. That is what their society is based on. Refocus all of that hate-filled destructive energy in wealth creation and build a rational, moral society. As long as they have you and your fellow apologists though, I doubt that will happen any time soon.

Lost hope creates terrorism? As with all of the Palestinian talking points you’ve delivered this one is another bunch of crap. You refuse to acknowledge the constant violence against Jews since the beginning of Islam. And as I’ve pointed out before, and which you’ve ignored, Muslims have been murdering Jews in the Holy Land for generations. There is a short history of pre-1967 Muslim massacres of Jews at: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1691

What hopelessness were they suffering from back then? And speaking of Nazis, pay special attention to Imam Haj Amin al Husseini, who offered Hitler his help in ridding the world of Jews.

As for this racist crap, and the introduction of the Nazis into this discussion, you’re engaging in what in your field is known as projection, you know, claiming that your own failures and shortcomings (or those of the barbarians you champion) are really those of your enemies. For example, it is Muslims who think Jews are subhuman and refer to them as apes and pigs. http://video.google.com/videosearch?client=safari&rls=en&q=jews%20apes%20and%20pigs&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wv#

Continued next comment-

Harry said...

Continue-

And according to article 22 of the Hamas charter, which you can find at:

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

"For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.
You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.
"So often as they shall kindle a fire for war, Allah shall extinguish it; and they shall set their minds to act corruptly in the earth, but Allah loveth not the corrupt doers." (The Table - verse 64).
The imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East, support the enemy with all their might, in money and in men. These forces take turns in doing that. The day Islam appears, the forces of infidelity would unite to challenge it, for the infidels are of one nation.
"O true believers, contract not an intimate friendship with any besides yourselves: they will not fail to corrupt you. They wish for that which may cause you to perish: their hatred hath already appeared from out of their mouths; but what their breasts conceal is yet more inveterate. We have already shown you signs of their ill will towards you, if ye understand." (The Family of Imran - verse 118).
It is not in vain that the verse is ended with Allah's words "if ye understand." "


Continued again-

Harry said...

Continue (but sorry for the long-windedness)

There’s more anti-Semitic crap in the Hamas charter (and in the Fatah charter), some of it from hadiths, but you get the idea. It’s Muslims who proudly desecrate bodies of murdered Jews when they can. It’s your Palestinians who bring absurd charges against Jews, the same kind that have been part and parcel of anti-Semitism for the past 2000 years.

For example, from an article at, http://www.jewishworldreview.com/jonathan/rosenblum_incitement.php3

Ever wonder where the report featured that Israeli soldiers kidnap and kill Palestinians in order to harvest their vital organs for transplants originated. Palestinian Media Watch provides the answer. It was lifted in toto from the December 24, 2001 edition of Al Hayat Al Jadida, the official Palestinian Authority newspaper.

Daniel Bostrum, the intrepid reporter for Sweden's largest circulation paper Aftonblandet who plagiarized this fabrication, has said of his handiwork, "Whether it's true or not, I have no idea. I have no clue."

Given his indifference to truth of his journalistic offerings, what further "scoops" can we anticipate from Bostrum? Again, Palestinian Media Watch provides the answer.
Here are just some of the charges one could have read in the official Palestinian press or heard from leading Palestinian Authority officials in recent years. Israel will pay 4,500 shekels to any Palestinian who can prove he is a drug addict. Israel produced and distributed to Palestinians two hundred tons of drug-laced bubble-gum designed to destroy the genetic systems of Palestinian youth. It also distributes carcinogenic food and fruits for Palestinian consumption and children's games that beam radioactive x-rays. And don't forget the HIV-infected Jewish prostitutes whom Israel has loosed among Palestinian youth. Or Suha Arafat's accusation to Hilary Clinton that Israel poisons Palestinian wells."


So who is dehumanizing who? Who are the racists? Do you also adopt these Palestinian talking points? You seem to accept many of the other ones. There is much more at: http://www.pmw.org.il/

Even though you spent time in Gaza, they may not have shown you some of this. It would reveal their Jew-hatred that has nothing to do with poverty or hopelessness. Their biggest hope that’s been repeatedly dashed is their hope to destroy Israel and murder Jews, just like the Nazis. In Gaza, they are even able to live the Nazi’s dream of a Jew-free country.

You may want to examine your beliefs. Go to the links I’ve listed. Try to answer many of the questions I’ve posed and you’ve ignored or whitewashed. Examine your projection.

Elizabeth said...

"Jews are banned from living in Gaza"

Amira Hass, the Jewish Israeli reporter for Ha'aretz newspaper, lives in Gaza, and has been doing so for some time.

I had Jewish colleague who a few years ago was making plans to live in the West Bank where they were working out a possible job for her at a university...it wasn't a permanent job, but she didn't have to get any governmental permission for it either.

You absorb propaganda like a sponge.

Harry said...

Elizabeth,
Wow, was I ever wrong on that one. I have to hang my head in shame because there is a - that is - one Jew living in Gaza. Actually, let's double that. After all, Gilad Shalit is still a guest of Hamas and presumably still living in Gaza.

Speaking of propaganda, both of these Jews are useful to Hamas, Shalit, obviously as a pawn and bargaining chip. After reading some of Amira Hass' reports, it's extremely obvious why she's allowed to live (and loved too, I'm guessing) in Gaza. It's not every day a terrorist organization finds a tool like that. It's interesting that Hass publishes her POV in a mainstream Israeli newspaper without fear of reprisal. A Gazan speaking out against Hamas would be murdered as a collaborator.

I suppose it's also propaganda that Israel uprooted thousands of Jews in 2005 and forced them out of Gaza, after which Gazans, in celebration, burned synagogues and destroyed greenhouses meant to help them build an economy, and then turned their (almost) Jew-free territory into a terrorist haven, from where they rain rockets and mortars down on Israel.

You won't respond to much of what I've said, just as you've avoided almost all of my questions and points, while accusing me of not answering ONE of yours.

Projection. Admit it.

Elizabeth said...

"A Gazan speaking out against Hamas would be murdered as a collaborator"

There are actually a number of different factions in Gaza; they operate openly. There's Fatah, Islamic Jihad, the PFLP (a shadow of its former self) and there are non-aligned people. The Palestinian Territories have had open elections in which people campaigned on various platforms. These elections were certified by international observers as fair, and I witnessed the campaigning myself.

ABNPOPPA said...

Elizabeth,

Not wanting to jump into this fray with you and Harry but, you know me. Doesn't that prove Harry's point? Your comment about "A Gazan speaking out against Hamas would be murdered as a collaborator". Something about Freedom of Speech, from your own kind. Just wondering. You both have posted some very good links. Just keeping up with you two has been very informative for me and I am sure others.

Thank you.

Pops

Harry said...

Pops,
I think Elizabeth was actually quoting me. I said that in my previous post. By the way, I'm glad somebody is getting something out of this debate.

Elizabeth,
It's interesting that all of the parties you name are terrorist organizations. So no matter who wins, and no matter how fair the elections were Gazans have only terrorists to vote for. When are the next elections?

According to Amnesty International: Posted: 10 February 2009

Hamas forces in the Gaza Strip have carried out a deadly campaign of abductions, killings, torture and death threats against those they accuse of 'collaborating' with Israel, as well as opponents and critics, Amnesty International revealed in a new report today.


http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=18064

ABNPOPPA said...

Harry,

I have received several emails from fellow bloggers who state they "have learned" from your and Elizabeth's discussion/debate.

As my father would tell me when I didn't want to do my home work. "Knowledge is power son. Do you want to be weak?" Of course the answer was no and off to do my homework I would go.

I really do appreciate all you both are doing. It is very difficult to have people of opposing views debate in such depth without getting personal.

Thanks again,

Pops

Lutheran Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Destruction of the embryo in the mother's womb is a violation of the right to live which God has bestowed upon this nascent life. To raise the question whether we are here concerned already with a human being or not is merely to confuse the issue. The simple fact is that God certainly intended to create a human being and that this nascent human being has been deliberately deprived of his life. And that is nothing but murder.

Read more about this famous Lutheran Pastor at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer