My Rule for Life

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.

Thursday, January 15, 2009

A Different Point of View

A little intro if you please maestro!

I would like to introduce you to a new acquaintance, via the blog-o-sphere, her name is Lilia from Algeria. She is a very strong practicing Muslim. We met via a comment I posted on another blog. Lilia sent me this email as a reply to my post comments. Of course I put forth a pro Israel view and Lilia responded .

This is unedited and I have received her permission to post it. Remember the ground rules of this blog, BE NICE, no cussin', gougin' spitin, or hitin where ain't proper. This blog is for everyone who is civil and for discussion purposes, not arguments. I have forewarned Lilia some comments may be hard but she is a tough girl and I feel she can take the heat.

Here is her email.

Salam (peace) everybody,

ABNPOPPA,

What "bomb makers and homicide bombers" are you talking about? Those who have killed a thousand (1000) innocent people in less than 2 weeks with their Weapons of Mass Destruction? Or those patriots who retaliated with their meagre "weapons" and killed 12 soldiers in the said 15 days?!

Failing to notice the FACT that Israel (a military superpower) bombarding cowardly a part of a country it colonised and killing & wounding for life shamelessly thousands of innocent people because a minuscule group armed with firecrackers dare to throw now and then some of their toys in an attempt to frighten them out of their (the tiny group's) country…I'm sorry, that's incredible, unreal, insane, etc., and I'm sure that everybody deep inside know that it's absurd even though they say otherwise for reasons best known to themselves… This is a REAL GENOCIDE, A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY. Period.

"I don't quite understand why it appears women appear to be second rate citizens with not being allowed out of the home without a male companion and other demeaning practices such as that" = Haha, this is really funny and it makes me laugh! This is the kind of the many stereotypes you (Westerners) have about us! Why is it we know a lot about YOU and you don't know anything about US, the REAL Muslims? You tend to see only the prejudiced, bigoted media that show only what they want to show you! Thank God we're not as blinded as you are!

For the record, I'm a Female Muslim, living and Working in Algeria. I have my own car and travel and go out of the house wherever I want and I'm at least as free as any American woman can be, so don't try to speak about something you know nothing about. If you're talking about Saudi women, the only Muslim women in the world who don't have the right to drive, let me tell you that they are happy and don't want ANYbody to "FREE" them because they are satisfied with their lot and are among the best protected and respected women in the world and that despite all what you say.

http://www.muslimbridges.org/content/view/378/

Please read a little bit about Islam and Muslims not from Racist, Anti-Islam, bigoted websites and books, etc., but from some objective sources that try to explain and not to misconstrue the real meaning of my GREAT religion Islam.

http://www.muslimbridges.org/content/view/41/

That said, let me tell you that while I'm a deeply religious, practising Muslim, I have read the Bible and enjoy reading about and trying to understand other religions far from any prejudice or misconception about them because this is what Allah urges us to do. And all that helped me in checking and knowing better the real value of ISLAM and the luck I am in to be Muslim.

May God open your eyes to the truth and show you the right path Incha'Allah.

Salam
Lilia from Algeria

http://www.muslimbridges.org/

http://www.islam-guide.com/

http://www.harunyahya.com/

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/

http://www.55a.net/


"And in their [the earlier prophets] footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the law that had come before him. We sent him the Gospel, therein was guidance and light and confirmation of the law that had come before him, a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God." ~ Qur'an, Chapter 5, Verse 46

"Say ye: 'We believe in God and the revelation given to us and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord. We make no difference between one and another of them, and we bow to God. " ~ Qur'an, Chapter 2, Verse 136

"Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the SabiansQur'an 5.69. and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." ~

"The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr" ~ Prophet Mohammad (Saaws)

"Do not say, that if the people do good to us, we will do good to them; and if the people oppress us, we will oppress them; but determine that if people do you good, you will do good to them; and if they oppress you, you will not oppress them" ~ Prophet Mohammad (Saaws)

"Do you love your creator? Love your fellow-beings first" ~ Prophet Mohammad (Saaws)

"The greatest crimes are to associate another with God, to vex your father and mother, to murder your own species, to commit suicide, and to swear to lie" ~ Prophet Mohammad (Saaws)

"Shall I not inform you of a better act than fasting, alms, and prayers? Making peace between one another: enmity and malice tear up heavenly rewards by the roots" ~ Prophet Mohammad (Saaws)

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~ Aristotle


Comments are always appreciated.


68 comments:

Subvet said...

You spoke of Saudi Arabia. If the religious climate fostered by Islam is so peaceful, why aren't Christians allowed to build any churches in that country? This isn't something just bandied about on disreputable web sites, the Catholic Pope has mentioned it at times.

Lilia from Algeria said...

Subvet,

Thank you for your comment. I'm Algerian (North Africa), Arab and Muslim but not Saudi. I mentioned that country in relation to a comment some users posted. Saudi Arabia is one Muslim country among hundred of others. There are currently an estimated 1.84 billion Muslims in the world while Saudi Arabia has only 27.6 million inhabitants (Saudi Arabia's population as of July 2006 is estimated to be about 27,019,731, including an estimated 5,576,076 resident foreigners ~ Wikipedia)so why do you talk about that country while ALL the other Muslim countries have churches? Even Iran (considered by the US as the most "extremist" Muslim country) has not only a Christian population but also a Jewish population!

Interesting that you talk about the catholic pope, whose residence is in the Vatican! He should set the example and build a MOSQUE in the Vatican^^

Good day to you!

Salam (peace)

Lilia from Algeria

Subvet said...

Lilia, ever been to the Vatican? I have. They don't have room for a port-a-potty to be placed there, let alone a mosque. I'm not speaking of only the Papal residence, I'm talking of the entire city-state.

Italy on the other hand, a predominantly Catholic country, has a number of mosques and more being built. As does Ireland, which recently published the Koran in Gaelic.

As for mentioning Saudi Arabia, isn't that the country of both Mecca & Medina, the two holiest cities in Islam? Since thats so one might think it would embody the purest form of Islam, including the tolerance not found in other countries such as Iran.

Thanks for your prompt response.

Anonymous said...

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http://www.mohammedt-shirt.com
And allah will help the muslims. HA HA HA HA

ABNPOPPA said...

Great comments Subvet. Lilia seems like a good practicing Muslim. You treated her with the respect all religious people deserve.

Anonymous, Not exactly a nice comment. I will let it stand this time. In the future please leave some kind of moniker so we may address your comments directly. We try to engage in intelligent discussion here.

Having said that thanks for stopping by and commenting.

Pops

Harry said...

Lilia,
You refer to the rockets that Hams has been blasting into Israel for years as "firecrackers" and "toys". Since 2001, these "firecrackers and toys" have killed 28 Israelis. Many more have been injured and terrorized. If you had to face this reality, I bet you wouldn't be minimizing them. As for the much greater number of Gazans killed, it is a tragedy. Hamas is wholly at fault though. They use mosques, schools, hospitals, and homes as firing positions and weapons depots. These cowards also use women and children as human shields. The "patriots" of Hamas want lots of human carnage that they can use for propaganda. These are real war crimes as defined by the Geneva Convention.

If Israel is out for genocide, they're doing a mighty poor job of it. Since Israel took over Gaza from Egypt (when nobody complained of an occupation or colonization) in 1967, Gazan life expectancy has increased and infant mortality rates have decreased, all due to access to Israeli hospitals. In fact, wounded Gazan children are still being taken to Israeli hospitals. Gunfire from Hamas has to be dodged to get there though. The population of Gaza has increased tremendously. If Israel wanted genocide, they would do as Syria did to the city of Hama in 1982, or as the Lebanese did to the Nahr al-Bared refugee camp in 2007, or as Hamas and Fatah did to each other. Instead the IDF drops leaflets and calls cell phones to warn civilians of attacks. Hamas, of course, exploits this regard for human life and forces women and children to stay in order to be bombed. That is a true crime against humanity.

As for Hamas being a minuscule portion of the Gazan population, get real. They control Gaza. They intimidate the population. They steal food and medical supplies from Israel and the rest of the world to create shortages (that they blame on Israel) and sell for a profit. They've had the chance to build a real society, but they've squandered it because they only live to murder Israelis. It's in their charter. They destroyed the infrastructure that Israel left them (including greenhouses that brought in millions of dollars) because they prefer to keep the population wallowing in misery and extort money from the rest of the world.

And don't go on about being trapped in Gaza. Israel built a wall to keep out Gazan homicide bombers. It's worked. Why has Egypt built a wall separating themselves from Gaza? Why does nobody complain about it?

Due to constant attacks from surrounding Muslim neighbors since Israel's founding, Israel has been forced to build a powerful military, yet they are the most humane on Earth. If Israel gave up their weapons tomorrow, then you'd see the genocide that Muslim leaders have been promising and attempting since 1948. If the surrounding Muslim nations gave up their weapons tomorrow, you'd see peace.

As long as you want to play "Quote the Qu'ran, here are some quotes encouraging violence, war, and Jew-hatred:

Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."
Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."
Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."
Qur'an 2:61 "Humiliation and wretchedness were stamped on the Jews and they were visited with Allah's wrath."
Qur'an 4:44 "Have you not considered those to whom a portion of the Book has been given? They traffic in error and desire that you should go astray. But Allah has full knowledge of your enemies. Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, saying, 'We hear and we disobey' with a twist of their tongues they slander Faith.... Allah has cursed them for disbelief."
Qur'an 4:47 "O you People of the Book to whom the Scripture has been given, believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming and verifying what was possessed by you, before We destroy your faces beyond all recognition, turning you on your backs, and curse you as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be executed."
Qur'an 4:160 "For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) in that they hindered many from Allah's Way, that they took usury, though they were forbidden, and that they devoured men's wealth on false pretenses, We have prepared for those among them who reject [Islamic] Faith a painful doom."
Qur'an 5:59 "Say: 'People of the Book! Do you disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that has come to us and that which came before?' Say: 'Shall I point out to you something much worse than this by the treatment it received from Allah? Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom He transformed into apes and swine."
Qur'an 2:64 "But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you."
Ishaq:240 "The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people."
Qur'an 33:26 "Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before."

Lilia from Algeria said...

Subvet,

I'm Algerian not Saudi & I know that many of Saudi Arabia's decisions are not guided only by religion but also by politics & traditions. & I don't know of any other Muslim country where there is a Christian community & no Church.

& no I have never been to the Vatican but I'd like very much to visit it one day.

Harry,

"Since 2001, these "firecrackers and toys" have killed 28 (28 in 8 years!!!)Israelis"; on the other hand "three (3!) weeks of fighting killed some 1,200 Palestinians, about half of them civilians, according to Palestinian and U.N. officials." (from AP)... This sums it all.

& I won't fall so low as to play "Quote the Torah" & give some quotes OUT of context "encouraging violence, war, and [Gentile]-hatred"

Salam
Lilia from Algeria

http://www.muslimbridges.org/

http://www.islam-guide.com/

http://www.harunyahya.com/

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/

http://www.55a.net/


"And in their [the earlier prophets] footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the law that had come before him. We sent him the Gospel, therein was guidance and light and confirmation of the law that had come before him, a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God." ~ Qur’an, Chapter 5, Verse 46

"Say ye: 'We believe in God and the revelation given to us and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord. We make no difference between one and another of them, and we bow to God. " ~ Qur’an, Chapter 2, Verse 136

“Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” ~ Qur’an 5.69.

“The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr” ~ Prophet Mohammad (Saaws)

“Do not say, that if the people do good to us, we will do good to them; and if the people oppress us, we will oppress them; but determine that if people do you good, you will do good to them; and if they oppress you, you will not oppress them” ~ Prophet Mohammad (Saaws)

“Do you love your creator? Love your fellow-beings first” ~ Prophet Mohammad (Saaws)

“The greatest crimes are to associate another with God, to vex your father and mother, to murder your own species, to commit suicide, and to swear to lie” ~ Prophet Mohammad (Saaws)

“Shall I not inform you of a better act than fasting, alms, and prayers? Making peace between one another: enmity and malice tear up heavenly rewards by the roots” ~ Prophet Mohammad (Saaws)

“It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ~ Aristotle

ABNPOPPA said...

Very interesting discussion. I thank all of you who commented and wrote. If you have rebuttal or other comments please continue. Please send/email my Conservative Outrage link to others in your sphere of influence and encourage them to comment also. I hope everyone has at the very least garnered another person's point of view. Intelligent discussion is hope and possibly the salvation of Mankind.


Knowledge is power!

Pops

Harry said...

Lilia,
"This sums it all."

Actually it doesn't sum it up. What it shows is that Hamas is much better at causing the deaths of their own women and children than murdering Israelis. It also shows that they don't care who dies as long as they can sow death.

As for quoting the Torah - feel free. We've both taken quotes from the Qu'ran out of context. There are Muslims who are using these quotes to justify the murder of people (including Muslims) all over the world.

Elizabeth said...

as a health professional, I would like to respond to
"Since Israel took over Gaza from Egypt (when nobody complained of an occupation or colonization) in 1967, Gazan life expectancy has increased and infant mortality rates have decreased, all due to access to Israeli hospitals."

How silly. US life expectancy has increased and infant mortality has decreased since 1967. This is because of general advances in medicine.
The Palestinian Territories have many hospitals; I have seen them. Unfortunately, because Israel has instituted a blockade of Gaza, not only are medical supplies occasionally limited, but Palestinian doctors are unable to travel abroad for conferences. In fact, recently Gaza students who received US scholarships to study in the US were denied the right to leave Gaza by ISRAEL which is supposedly the US's ally. Think about that!

Lilia from Algeria said...

Salam,

How wonderful! Thank you very much Elizabeth, this is the 1st time I see a person siding with the Palestinians since a VERY long time. You should see the comments I got on The Jungle Hut blog! I assure you that I didn't respond to Harry because of lack of time; got a lot of work to do! Anyway, it makes me feel good to see that I'm not ALL alone in these two blogs! Thanks!

Subvet,

This is the answer to your question regarding church building in Saudi Arabia I found on a specialised website (readingIslam.com):

"Islam guarantees freedom of religion in Muslim countries. There are millions of Christians in Muslim countries.

In Egypt alone, there are more than four million Christians. They preach their religion freely. They even go to poverty-stricken areas, giving their charity to the needy, and distribute their proselytizing material, like richly colored pamphlets and booklets.

They also have huge and beautifully built churches, which number 2400, according to the official census of 1996.

In a country like Denmark, however, 250,000 Muslims are not permitted to build one mosque as Islam is not yet considered an official religion in Denmark. This is despite the fact that more than 5% of Danes are Muslims.

Muslim Danes practice their rituals in buildings that one can not differentiate from industrial constructions.

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) warned against oppressing the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) saying that he will come on the Day of Judgment arguing against the oppressor.

(...)

Regarding the non-existence of churches in Saudi Arabia, every religion has a sacred land, like the Vatican for the Catholic Christians. We all know that there are neither mosques nor synagogues in the Vatican.

I think it would be very rude of Muslims and Jews if they ask for building their places of worship in the Vatican.

Likewise, the land of Arabia is a sacred land for the Muslims.

The wisdom in this is that every religion has the right to teach its followers that its beliefs are the right beliefs and that other beliefs are either false or not accurate.

Any person is allowed by law to stand at the corner of the street and say that 3 plus 3 equals 5, but he should not be allowed to teach this to the students in a school.

It follows that every religion has the right to have its own sacred land to preach its teachings without interruption or interference from others."

AND:

"Non-Muslims under Islamic Shari`ah do possess special rights irrespective of whether they constitute a minority or a majority. Islam makes it clear that Muslims are not allowed under any circumstances to burn holy places or books of non-Muslims or to abuse them.

In this context, I would like to cite the words of the prominent Muslim scholar Sheikh `Abdul-Majid Subh in his book Good Argumentation with the Doubters of Islam from the Qur’an, the Torah, the Gospels and Science:

Permanent residence in foreign countries is always subject to particular restrictions and conditions. In Islam, this question is totally different. Non-Muslims residing in the Muslim State are ruled by the fair Islamic maxim that admits “They are entitled to have equal rights as Muslims have and to shoulder the same duties as Muslims do.”

Once I was in Italy where I met five monks. One of them challenged me, saying, “We have permitted you Muslims to build a mosque in Rome; then do you permit us to build a church in Makkah or Madinah?”

Eloquently, I replied, “Here, you should consider the following three points:

1. Islam is a religion, state, and politics, and its constitution is the Glorious Qur’an; does the same apply to the Gospel?

2. Makkah is the sanctuary of Islam, and both Makkah and Madinah were the places of the descent of the revelation, the residence of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and fields of Islamic history. Then, have you Christians permitted building the mosque in the sanctuary of the Vatican?

3. Muslims build mosques according to the instructions of the Glorious Qur’an. Do you find any instruction in the Gospel ordering building churches?”

However, his answers were in the negative. Consequently, it has been proved beyond doubt that the analogy between Makkah and Rome is invalid. Also, the claim that mosques are built in the Christian lands while Muslims do not permit Christians to do so is null and void, for churches are freely built in many of the Muslim lands.
Please also read what Khalid Baig writes in “On Religious Tolerance”:
While Muslim Personal Law is not recognized in the West, the Personal Law of non-Muslim minorities has always been recognized in the Muslim world. Second, while throughout Europe and America, Muslims are not permitted to make the call to prayer (adhan) on loud speakers, church bells ring freely in the Muslim world. Third, the wide spread anti-Islamic prejudice in the Western media is both a cause and a consequence of the underlying intolerance. Fourth, hate crimes are a fact of life in the West. As just one small indication, nearly two-dozen incidents of vandalism have taken place against Mosques in the peaceful USA during the last seven years, not to mention hundreds of attacks against individuals.
Allah Almighty knows best."

Hope it answers your question Subvet!

Harry,

I'll get to you later; really got to go.

Have a nice weekend (our weekend is Thursday, Friday),

Salam
Lilia
Algeria

http://www.muslimbridges.org/

http://www.islam-guide.com/

http://www.harunyahya.com/

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/

http://www.55a.net/

Jungle Mom said...

Lilia,
I do not think I have been rude to you. I have merely asked questions and do not seem to get a response.
To say that Christianity is allowed to be practiced freely in Islamic countries is an untruth. I know that they are not allowed to share their faith with Muslims and Muslims are not allowed to convert. I know people who have been killed for merely sharing a Bible. I knew them personally. Please do not try to continue with this line. That is not religious freedom.
It is important to note that the Old Testament, the Jewish scriptures, was given by God to a nation with the intent of their protection and prosperity as a nation.
It is thousands of years old and was delivered to them in a time of great violence in all the world. It is actually very lenient when compared historically with other states of that time.
This is not the same case of the New Testament which was given to the Christina church, not a political entity or nation, and was written centuries later.
The Koran which was written by one prophet, sets up the faith as a political entity as well as a 'church' and with the intent to proselytize all people even if forcibly.w

Harry said...

Elizabeth,
Regarding life expectancy in Gaza, "general advances" doesn't explain it all.

According to Ha'aretz, "As uncomfortable as it is to admit, the data suggests that the Israeli occupation did well by Gaza. Life expectancy in the Strip has risen from 48 years in 1967 to over 72 years now, higher than the life expectancy in Egypt, which was not very kind to Gaza when the Strip was subject to its military rule. According to a study conducted by Daniel Nadav of the Defense Ministry, the introduction of Israel's health-care system into Gaza, the adoption of local hospitals by Israeli medical centers, and the transfer of Palestinian patients to hospitals in Israel resulted in a sharp and immediate drop in the mortality rate. This positive development had negative consequences - a growing population density caused by a high rate of natural increase, and diseases that are more common in societies that have changed their consumption habits and aged (in 1967 only one in 70 people in Gaza was elderly)."

I believe that Egypt would have kept pace with Gaza if it were only general advances. The whole article as at: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/984673.html

The state of Gazan hospitals has nothing to do with a blockade. Medical supplies are always sent in even when Hamas is shelling the crossing point. Even during the Israeli incursion into Gaza. The problem is that Hamas steals these supplies. It's in their best interest as a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel to keep the people of Gaza as miserable as possible. They use this self-imposed misery as a propaganda tool to steer public opinion to their direction.

Speaking of blockades, why are there never any complaints against the Egyptian blockade of Gaza? Hamas doesn't even blast rockets into Egypt, nor have they sent homicide bombers to murder innocent Egyptians.

As for the Fulbright winning Gazan students denies visas, according to the New York Sun,

"WASHINGTON � A Republican congressman is pressing the State Department to screen three Palestinian Arab recipients of Fulbright grants to determine their links to terrorism after learning of their affiliation with a Hamas-sponsored university.

The three winners of American taxpayer-funded Fulbright grants to study in America � Fidaa Abed, Osama Dawoud, and Zohair Abu Shaban � have studied or taught at the Islamic University of Gaza. An Israeli newspaper, Yediot Ahronot, reported in 2007 that Islamic U. was one location where a kidnapped Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kept after his abduction in 2006. The newspaper also said forces loyal to President Abbas had raided the university in 2007 and found stocks of rifles and rocket launchers.

"On its face, the State Department's decision to award Fulbright Scholarships to employees or affiliates of Islamic University of Gaza is a direct violation of new U.S. Law," Rep. Mark Kirk, a Republican from Illinois, wrote in a letter to the acting inspector general of the State Department, Harold Geisel, on June 10.

The letter also cites an Israeli press report that an officer in the Iranian Revolutionary Guard taught a course at the university in explosives-making, though one source cautioned that that claim may be propaganda from a rival Palestinian Arab faction."

Also, according to the article,

"The Islamic University of Gaza is intertwined with Hamas. In his letter, Mr. Kirk quotes Jameela El Shanty, a professor at the school who told the Baltimore Sun in 2006: "Hamas built this institution. The university presents the philosophy of Hamas. If you want to know what Hamas is, you can know it from the university."

The complete article is at: http://www.nysun.com/foreign/congressman-asks-terrorist-screening-of-gaza/80407/

Lilia,
I hope to hear from you when you have more time.

Elizabeth said...

Harry,

First of all, I am not interested in defending Egypt, which is a despotism. The issue is not whether Palestinians are doing better under an Israeli occupation than they were under an Egyptian occupation. The point is that a military occupation is wrong. I only made that comment because it is silly to claim that the only reason Palestinians are living longer is because of contact with Israeli hospitals. That comment simply ignores the vast advances in medical science around the world in the past 40 years.

Overall there seems to be a lot of hairsplitting going on in this comment section and general missing of the point(s). Who cares whether Christians can practice in Saudi Arabia because I'm pretty sure there are virtually zero native Christians in Saudi Arabia. Saudia Arabia was a very thinly populated area until oil was found and it still is a somewhat sparsely populated country. There are many, many laws in Saudi Arabia I don't agree with, hence, I do not live there! If the Saudis like their system, why shouldn't they have it. WE don't like it when other people tell us how to live; why should we tell the Saudis how to live? I belong to Amnesty International and I read about human rights abuses around the world (including in Saudi Arabia) but I have never read about the persecution of Christians there. I find a claim that there is some vast persecution of Christians in Saudi Arabia to be suspect. This just seems like some type of red herring, some type of non-issue so someone can rant about Muslims.

As for Islamic University of Gaza: I went to a school run by the Society of Friends (a/k/a the Quakers) but I am not a Quaker. I live in the USA, but I do not support GW Bush. To claim that someone supports terrorism because they attended a university where some of the professors are affiliated with Hamas is ridiculous. IUG is a real university and I'm pretty sure you can study English, and other academic subjects there! I'm pretty sure there is no major in terrorism! Students go there so they can get a college degree.

Elizabeth said...

Here is a link to IUG:
http://www.iugaza.edu.ps/eng/about/

I scanned the degrees they offer, but I was unable to find the B.S. and M.S. Terrorism degrees.

Elizabeth said...

By the way, Harry, do you have any sources for your assertiont that Hamas steals supplies from other Palestinians? Please don't quote The New York Sun, a hate sheet that is folding because no one reads it.

Also, I did a little googling and according to some websites (not that websites are always accurate) Saudi Arabia is virtually 100 percent Muslim. Who then would anyone be building Christian churches for?

Lilia from Algeria said...

Salam,

Harry,

You'll find my answers to some of your & others''interrogations' at The Jungle Hut blog.

Hope it'll enlighten some readers.

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=36746999&postID=816281054939937422

By the way, more than 1300 Palestinians were killed & around 5300 wounded by the Israeli army during 3 weeks (more than half of them children & women). Talk about legitimacy!

Salam
Lilia
Algeria

PS: Harry, next time you want to give evidence about anything, please try to find some -more or less- 'objective' source instead of quoting 'Haaretz'.

Elizabeth said...

Harry, re your comment that Gaza's problems don't have to do with the Israeli blockade, take a look at this article from Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSLJ23288

Subvet said...

Elizabeth, although the natives of Saudi Arabia are Muslim there is a large contingent of foreign workers from countries such as the Phillipines. They're unable to worship as they wish due to the laws of that land.

Which shouldn't surprise anyone, recently several stories about the abuses suffered by foreign workers in Saudi Arabia have surfaced via Freedom House & other human rights organizations.

ABNPOPPA said...

Wow! You girls are beating on Harry pretty hard. I believe he has some valid points. It is really hard to find objective reporting on such a emotional and sensitive issue.

Let's not scare him off!

Pops

Harry said...

Elizabeth,
The point about life expectancy is that that Israel gave Gazans access to the advanced medical care. And I'm not asking anyone to defend Egypt. I'm merely asking why nobody condemns the Egyptian blockade.

You got me when it comes to IUG. How absurd it is to suspect that anyone interested in terrorism would be a student there. Smail Abu Shanab, Ismail Haniyeh, and Mohammed Dahlan are all alumni, but that's only three and proves nothing. Hamas trains children in Gaza from childhood to hate Jews and to love "martyrdom". They have their "degrees in terrorism" before college. Even though they graduate engineering students, the only R & D we here about from Gaza is in rockets and other weaponry. But I'm sure they also boast a great Women's Study curriculum.
It's interesting that you would compare your education at a Quaker school to IUG. Which sovereign nation are they trying to destroy? In short, by the time Gazans get to college, they're already conditioned if not to engage in terrorism, then to support it - or to shut up about it in fear of being murdered as a collaborator.

Hamas stealing medical supplies, One report is at Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs at: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/Behind+the+Headlines/Hamas%20holding%20civilian%20population%20in%20Gaza%20hostage%207-May-2008. You have to scroll down to get to the report. Another, more recent report is from the Jerusalem Post at: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424932109&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull. I hope these are up to your standards.

I never wrote about Saudi Arabia, but since you mentioned it, I'm pretty sure you have to be a Muslim to be a citizen. I do know that Bibles and other Christian and Jewish religious objects are forbidden and are confiscated if you try to bring them in.

Harry said...

Elizabeth,
I read the article, but why do the Gazans have to tunnel under from Egypt? Could it be due to the wall dividing Egypt from Gaza? As long as supplies have to go through Israel, Israel has every right to make sure that these supplies aren't used as weapons against Israel. If Hamas was to agree to live in peace with Israel, these issues wouldn't exist.

Lilia,
I read your comments at Jungle Hut, and I couldn't help noticing that you blame everything on Jews - uh I mean Zionists. That's the current term used when people try and hide their Jew hatred. The reason I still say that is that you, throughout the multitude of (out of context) quotes from holy texts and conspiracy theories that hold Jews responsible for all of the evil in the world (only a slight exaggeration), you ignore 1300 years of history. Islam was spread by the sword. It's been documented. Mohammed cleansed the Arabian peninsula of Jews because they would not join his new religion. I believe that's documented in Islamic texts. Islamic armies were stopped in Europe by Charles Martel at the Battle of Poitiers in 732. Islamic armies went on to destroy the Byzantines in the 1400s, but were stopped from overrunning Europe in 1683.

The bloodshed continues to this day as Muslims battle Christians in Nigeria and other African countries. They may have wiped Christianity out of Sudan back in the 1990s. It was reported that Sudanese Muslims took Christian and Animists as slaves, but there hasn't been much written about it lately. There is a Muslim insurgency in the Philippines. Up until recently, Buddhists were being murdered regularly by Muslims in Thailand. China is dealing with Islamic terrorists. I could go on, but you get the idea. Over the past 1300 years, Islam has shown that it doesn't work and play well with others.

Also, you totally misrepresent Sharia law. Islam is a supremacist religion. Muslims, not Jews, as you claim, are supposed to rule over all other religions.

As for Jews being the Chosen People, you demonstrate that you don't understand the concept of "being chosen" as Jews understand it. Here is a good explanation in the form of a Q&A from a Chabad website.

Question:

I have long been uncomfortable with the concept of the "Chosen People". To suggest that as Jews we are somehow closer to G-d than all other nations smacks of arrogance, elitism, and racial prejudice. How is that any different to anti-Semitism?

Sincerely,
Margaret

Answer:

Dear Margaret,

That is a fantastic question -- a question that could only come from someone who is chosen. Allow me to explain.

In the Jewish understanding, chosenness leads not to arrogance, but rather to humility. If it were some human king that chose us to be his special people, then your assumption would be correct -- we would become elitists. When a mortal power shows favoritism towards a subject, that subject will become more arrogant as a result -- the closer you are to the king, the more significant you are, and the more significant you are the higher respect you feel you deserve.

But we were chosen by G-d. And the closer you are to G-d, the more you sense your insignificance. While being buddy-buddy with a human leader inflates your ego, a relationship with G-d bursts your selfish bubble. Because G-d is an infinite being, and all delusions of petty self-importance fall away when you stand before infinity. Being close with G-d demands introspection and self-improvement, not smugness.

This is the idea of the Chosen People -- a nation of individuals who have been given the opportunity to sense G-d's closeness, hear His truth and relay his message to the world. All agree that it was the Jews that introduced the world to monotheism and a system of ethics and morals that has shaped the modern view of life and its purpose. And it is the survival of Judaism to this day that attests to the eternal value of this system.

To say that this is ethnocentric is absurd for one simple reason: anyone from any ethnic background can convert to Judaism and become chosen. Jewish chosenness is not a gene, it is a state of the soul. Anyone wishing to take it upon themselves is welcome -- as long as they are ready to have their bubble burst.

So the arrogant person is not acting chosen. The true test of chosenness is how humble you are. You, Margaret, have passed this test with flying colors. Your humility is so deep, it doesn't allow you to accept that you are chosen. While most other religious groups are quite comfortable claiming that they are the best, we Jews will do anything to say that we are nothing special. Now that's what I call a Chosen People!

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/160993/jewish/Are-the-Jews-the-Chosen-People.htm

The idea of any kind of Jewish supremacy is something that others try to force upon us. But it doesn't fit. Two tenths of the world's population cannot dream of controlling the rest. Twenty percent, however, who are commanded, "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

While you complain about the tiny sliver of country, Israel, Islamic countries take up quite a large portion of the planet. But then, isn't it also true that in Islam, what ever belonged to Islam at any time is still considered as belonging to Islam? The only reason Jews had to fight for their country is that they were attacked by the surrounding Arab countries as soon as they declared independence.

As for Jews and Muslims living in peace until the Zionists showed up, sometimes they did and sometimes they didn't. But Jews are always dhimmis in Islamic society.

"When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results. On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.

Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.25

Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by the Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830; and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.26

Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854­859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).27

The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.28

As distinguished Orientalist G.E. von Grunebaum has written:

It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms."
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf15.html

Stop complaining about bias. All news sources are biased. I deal with it. You can too. If there is anything incorrect in the Ha'aretz article, then let us know.

Regarding the Gazans who were killed, as I've said before, every single death is the fault of Hamas. They insist on violence. They insist on using women and children as human shields. They are evil.

Harry said...

A news report to turn your stomach is at: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292907998&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull Read it all. Will anyone protest this brutality?

A video to warm your heart is at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecH2UNFM0dI&eurl=http://www.israelmatzav.blogspot.com/

Elizabeth said...

Harry,

People do condemn Egypt's blockade. You just don't read those blogs. Egypt, however, isn't bombing and strafing Gaza, or setting up military checkpoints WITHIN the West Bank.

You certainly make a lot of generalizations about Muslims and Palestinians. Have you by chance ever met a Palestinian? Or been to the Palestinian Territories? By the way, I walked around Gaza City without a head scarf, obviously not Palestinian, and no one attacked me. Surprised? In fact a colleague of mine walked around the West Bank wearing her Star of David. If we had been attacked, it would have been for being Americans, not for being Jewish.

I find your joke about Womens' Studies to be ironic because for years, right-wing people were deriding the "liberalism" of colleges that offered Womens' Studies departments, which were described by right-wing people as not education. Feminism and womens' rights were derided for years by right-wing groups in this country, who didn't believe women deserved the same rights as men. Now all of a sudden right-wing people are feminists when it comes to Muslim countries. I wish you people would make up your minds.

I'm not sure whether I want to involve myself in the religious argument because I believe that all organized religions are designed to oppress people. However I will just say, as a psychotherapist, that narcissism is all about believing that you are special, and thinking you are special because you are chosen by god is considered a grandiose psychosis/delusion in my field.

As for all the alleged insurrections by Muslims around the world that you cite, it's odd that I have not heard much about these alleged crimes against humanity in The New YOrk Times, the Associated Press, Reuters, CNN, the BBC, etc etc...there's a raging civil war in Nigeria? I'm pretty sure I would have heard about that one. Is it possible Harry you are reading some right-wing publications' distorted reports of low grade ethnic conflicts? Unfortunately ethnic conflicts exist to some degree almost everywhere. Christians oppress Muslims, Muslims oppress Christians. By the way, do you remember the Sabra and Shatila massacres, perpetrated against (mostly) Muslim women and children by Christians aided by Jews?

Few if any countries have the same civil liberties as we do in the US. Bibles are banned in Saudi Arabia? France banned Muslim girls from wearing their head scarves in school. However it seems right-wingers only want to defend other peoples' rights when Muslims are taking them away.

Harry said...

POPS!
Elizabeth called me a right winger!

But seriously folks, I mean Elizabeth - I'm not condemning or praising anyone's course of study. I made a joke. You took it poorly. But let's stay on topic.

Regarding the stuff Egypt isn't doing, how many homicide bombers and terrorist attacks have they faced from the West Bank and Gaza again? I've lost count.

I know other Jews who have trod the dusty streets of the West Bank and have not been murdered. That must mean it never happens, right? And I'm sure women now have equal rights in Gaza and are no longer encumbered by hijabs or burkhas. And yes there are women serving as legislators in Gaza.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48178

Were you and your friend walking alone on your respective trips, or did you have guides showing you the sights?

It's too bad that Tali Hatuel and her four daughters weren't as fortunate as you were in Gaza.

"May 2, 2004 - Tali Hatuel, 34, and her daughters - Hila, 11, Hadar, 9, Roni, 7, and Merav, 2 - of Katif in the Gaza Strip were killed when two Palestinian terrorists fired on an Israeli car at the entrance to the Gaza Strip settlement bloc of Gush Katif.

Tali Hatuel and her four daughters were killed when two Palestinian terrorists fired on an Israeli car at the entrance to the Gaza Strip settlement bloc of Gush Katif. They were on their way to campaign against Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's disengagement plan. Their white Citroen station wagon spun off the road after the initial shooting, then the attackers approached the vehicle and shot the occupants dead at close range. The Hatuels' car was riddled with bullets, and the carpet inside was stained with blood. The girls were killed hugging one another. On the car was a bumper sticker saying, "Uprooting the settlements, victory for terror."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Memorial/2004/Tali+Hatuel.htm

As a grandiose deluded psychotic (which is better than being called a right winger) I'd like to take a look at this chosen people business. Who believes that Jews are special? A lot of what goes on in the world isn't reported or is reported in smaller foreign newspapers. CNN might not consider it important enough. There isn't enough time or space to report or read about everything.

That being said, which country has been taking up the lion's share of international news lately? Would you like a hint? It's a tiny country bordering the Mediterranean Sea. It's about the size of New Jersey with a population of a little over seven million people. And it's the only Jewish majority country on the planet.

Yes, that's right, Israel. Why does the one tiny Jewish nation get so much attention? Especially when they defend themselves from their genocidal enemies. Not only is there a pile-on from the press, but the UN, the EU, and the entire Muslim world get themselves into an uproar.

There was a massacre of civilians in Congo back in December. That was good for a few day's reporting on the war that's been going on there for years leaving either tens or hundreds of thousands dead, I don't remember. And there are other wars that we hear little or nothing about. Why?

By the way, "raging civil war in Nigeria" is your term, not mine. But people are being raped and murdered in large numbers in parts of the world outside of Israel that get very little attention compared to Israel. Remember Zimbabwe? Tibet? Every once in a while I find them mentioned in my right wing news sources like The New York Times, the Associated Press, Reuters, CNN, and the BBC. Even Sudan is mentioned now and then. How many have been raped, murdered, and displaced there?

I bet that all of these trouble spots combined get about as much press as Israel. In your psychotheraputic opinion, could it be that it's the world that thinks Jews are special?

As you consider your answer, don't forget the thousands of previous years of scapegoating. An awful lot of attention has been paid the Jews, two tenths of one percent of the world's population, most of it, unwanted and downright vicious.

Oppression? Look at the numbers. When it comes to oppressing others, Islam wins hands down.

France = Saudi Arabia in lack of rights? I doubt it. Do more research.

By the way. I'm not a right winger. I'm just Harry, defender of truth, justice, liberty, and the downtrodden. (Cue my theme music)

Subvet said...

Lilia, your thoughts on this video please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZL7bEXUfOI

Elizabeth said...

Harry, those people you mentioned who got killed, the settlers, were killed because they were doing the equivalent of breaking into your house in the middle of the night and stealing your stuff. Or building a fence across your lawn (if you have a lawn) and saying that half of your lawn is now their lawn. If you woke up in the middle of the night would you shoot an intruder? Or maybe you would call the police...actually the Palestinians have called the "police" in this situation which is the UN, which has done nothing. What do you do when the police don't enforce the law...most people in such situations become vigilantes.

Harry said...

Elizabeth,
Those "people who were killed", as you so cavalierly refer to them, were a mother and her four young daughters. Their car was run off the road by the bullets of the terrorists. As the mother lay dying, the two terrorists came up to the car, saw the four little girls, looked them in the eye and shot them in cold blood.

As a psychotherapist, what is your opinion of a person who can excuse the vicious, unprovoked murder of a mother and her four young daughters by denying their humanity with the bloodless term, "settlers?"

As for your “breaking into your house” metaphor, the violence against Israelis started long before there was an Israel, continued through the years from 1948-1967 when Egypt occupied Gaza, and went unabated after Israel made it into a Jew-free zone in 2005. Don’t forget, Hamas considers all of Israel “occupied territory”.

Somebody somewhere always has an excuse for killing Jews. It’s the excusers and enablers like you though, who keep the murderers in business.

And don’t even try to draw a moral equivalence with the Gazan children who were killed in the latest Israeli incursion. Hamas used them as human shields and welcomed their deaths. There would have been even more had Hamas been able to arrange it. Here’s one brief video as demonstration, but there are more. As you watch it, ask yourself what those kids are learning from Hamas as they stand in the street and the gunmen hide under the trees and against the walls. Also, notice all of the other civilians gathered round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGv8ylbfatU

ABNPOPPA said...

Harry,

You'll just have to stand tall and take what Liz calls you. Actually I believe she is trying to complement you! At least that's the way I take it.

Good Luck

Pops

Elizabeth said...

Harry,
I really think that you want to be a novelist. You enjoy creating characters and stories and writing in a florid style.

The violence between early zionist settlers and native Arabs does go way back...the situation today however is not between peoples fighting in a stateless land ruled by the Ottoman Empire. It's a conflict between a powerful nation state, Israel, and a stateless people with no army, the Palestinians, who are seeing their land, upon which they have lived for hundreds of years, stolen from them.

I don't know why you object to the term "settler" which is what they are and no one disagrees with it.

It's true that killing children in the struggle is a war crime and it has been done by both Israel and various Palestinian groups. I fail to see how it's ok when Israel does it, and a crime when Palestinians do it. You keep double standards. Your use of the term "human shields" is incorrect. Using someone as a human shield is, for example, when Israeli soldiers took a Palestinian civilian and forcibly made him walk into a building in front of them, so if bullets started as the door opened he would be hit, not them, or if the place had been booby-trapped, he would have been blown up, not them. That's the correct use of the term "human shield." Simply being a soldier living in a civilian neighborhood is not using someone as a "human shield." Of course Hamas does not have army bases or naval bases because they do not have a formal army or a navy. They are fighting a guerrilla war and using the same principles of guerrilla warfare that have been used for many years.

Elizabeth said...

by the way, there's a US Army/National Guard armory/recruiting station two blocks from me (a two-minute walk) in my distinctly civilian neighborhood...do you suppose they're using me as a human shield? I'll have to contact the UN.

Elizabeth said...

There have been numerous eyewitness reports of Israeli soldiers deliberately killing children. Chris Hedges wrote an article for Harper's magazine a few years ago about watching soldiers in Gaza luring kids into an area by shouting anti-Arab epithets through a loudspeaker, then shooting them. You can look it up.
I think there was an article in the Guardian newspaper a few days ago about something similar recently. Your notion of Israeli soldiers as pure and good people who never commit war crimes is childish.

Elizabeth said...

Harry,
Knowing your interest in fiction and poetry, I thought of a poem for you.

"..You know the rest. In books you have read, How the British Regulars fired and fled,--How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall.."
--Paul Revere's Ride by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Lilia from Algeria said...

Salam:

Harry,

Look at these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3PF0q33uDw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIr4lEIqTkM

No comment

Subvet:

What about this one?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQanb4lvlNA

Enjoy!
Lilia
Algeria

ABNPOPPA said...

Ok, time for me to wade into this fray. Elizabeth, one reasons Egypt is not shelling and bombing Gaza is quite simple. I find it strange you haven't picked up on it. Egypt has NOT come under rocket and mortar fire from Gaza, unlike Israel.

Secondly,

Regarding Israeli soldiers deliberately killing innocent children and using a 2 year old article from Harper's for a source is beneath your skill level. The same for using the Guardian. Please take note, I am sure there are instances on BOTH sides that are not kosher, shall we say.

Although I have not commented much I feel this discussion could be better served if there we some independent verifications. Does anybody know of any UNBIASED AND INDEPENDANT organization is reporting on these issues? We all seem to be locked into OUR little sphere of influence, which is really not the point of INTELLIGENT discussion.

Pops

Elizabeth said...

Is anyone truly unbiased?

What's wrong with a story in Harper's magazine or the Guardian newspaper? Harper's has been around for a long time and the author of that article has written for numerous publications including the NY Times.

Egypt isn't building settlements on Palestinian land or claiming that Jerusalem belongs to them.

ABNPOPPA said...

Liz,

Didn't we have this discussion before? The state of Israel was established in 1948 with the help/sanction of the UN and other countries. Gaza was/is (?) part of that. Therefore is is/was Israel. That is why there are settlements being built. I believe it is called something like approved! Egypt was involved in the 1948 deal.

I may have not made myself clear. I was looking for some truly independent reporting. I really can't and shouldn't have commented on Harpers as I haven't read one in about, let's see, ah, 100 years. The Guardian IMHO is a rag.

Liz,

I know the poem but I am missing the point. May be old-timers disease.

Also, I don't believe the NG's are using you for a human shield. Why don't you bake some cookies and take them down there Saturday and just chat with the guys. You may get a different point of view and leave one.

Give a little, get a little

Pops

Harry,

ABNMOMMA said to tell you she is cuing up "The Stars and Stripes Forever" for youl

Elizabeth said...

Pops,
I don't understand your reference to 1948. That deal would actually have given the Palestinians more land than they have now, not less.

The point of the poem is that the American patriots practiced the same tactics of guerrilla warfare as Hamas.

I'm not sure you realized I was being sarcastic in my reference to the Army/National Guard armory. Obviously they have to be in a civilian neighborhood because in densely populated city of New York (just like the densely populated Gaza strip) it is impossible not to be in a civilian neighborhood. I was trying to show Harry that his personal definition of "human shield," in addition to not being the standard definition, is absurd.

Harry said...

Pops,
Please give my thanks to ABNMOMMA for the theme music.

As for finding a truly unbiased source of news, I have to (gasp) agree with Elizabeth on her contention that no sources are truly unbiased. I used to believe more in the “cycle of violence” paradigm but with more reading on the subject, I’ve discovered that that’s an invalid paradigm. What I do is read both sides. Then I decide who’s telling the truth. From my experience, the truth comes from Israel. Are they perfect and angelic? Of course not, but they’re much more honest. And here’s why.

OK, Elizabeth, you can jump in here. This is for you too.

Let’s start with Mr. Hedges, since Elizabeth is so invested in believing his story.

“4). In an exceptionally incendiary passage, Hedges claims:
Children have been shot in other countries I have covered - death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo - but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport.
• First, the sheer malice of this comment speaks for itself; if the Israelis, with the most powerful army in the Middle East enticed “children like mice into a trap and murdered them for sport,” why was only one person killed on June 17 - as tragic as that was - when Hedges wrote his “diary” entry on the events in question?
Moreover, Hedges’ account is at odds with those in other media, including his home publication, the New York Times. Reporting the events of June 17, Times correspondent Douglas Frantz wrote: “The Israeli military said soldiers had been under attack with stones and bottles” when they opened fire on “a crowd trying to tear down surrounding Jewish settlements in Gush Katif.”
Other news agencies reported that the Palestinians began throwing stones at soldiers in an Israeli settlement near Khan Younis after an attempted suicide bombing near Dahaniya in Gaza the same day. Margot Dudkevitch of the Jerusalem Post reported:
Near the entrance to Dahaniya, soldiers became suspicious of a man driving a donkey cart. As he approached the soldiers, the man jumped from the cart and detonated explosives hidden in it...IDF sappers detonated the remaining bombs that failed to explode, among them four gas canisters and two mines.
Soldiers on duty, already on edge, were aware that innocent looking Palestinians had tried to blow up other Israeli soldiers elsewhere in the Gaza Strip the same day. But Hedges did not even bother to report in his “diary” of events the attempted suicide bombing aimed at killing Israelis.
Similarly, an armed Palestinian gang shot and killed a 12 year old Palestinian on June 16 in the town of Rafah in the Gaza Strip. Hedges, who was in Gaza at the time, makes no mention of this either. On June 18 it was reported in The Jerusalem Post:
Yesterday, Palestinians, who had blamed Israel for the death of another 12 year-old boy near Rafah on Saturday, admitted that the boy had been killed by an armed opposition faction operating in Rafah. According to reports, a dispute broke out between Palestinian security officials and an armed gang that shot at soldiers near Rafah Yam. The Palestinian security officials demanded that the armed gang leave, and as they drove off gang members began shooting at random, mortally wounding Suliman Massari, 12, who was in a car, and wounding several other passengers.
• Notably, Thomas L. Friedman, a colleague of Hedges’ at The New York Times, wrote an op-ed (“Saudi Royals and Reality”, October 16, 2001) with what might have been an allusion to Chris Hedges’ falsehoods and deceptions in “A Gaza Diary.”
[T]o suggest that Israel is slaughtering Palestinians for sport, as if a war were not going on there, which Israel did not court, in which civilians on both sides are being killed... - is just a lie.
Friedman added that; “Normally such casual lying doesn’t bother me. It’s a staple of Middle East politics, but this particular version is dangerous, because it masks a deeper lie that can hurt us. I call it “the virgin birth problem.” Friedman was referring to a lack of Arab accountability not only regarding the Palestinian violence plaguing Israel for the past year but the larger problem of Arab hatred for the West which was brought home on September 11.” The entire article is at: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=32&x_article=4
Other famous lies from Palestinians include Jenin, where Palestinians claimed a massacre. Even the U.N. claimed otherwise, and you can read about it at Wikipedia: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=32&x_article=4
Then there is the Mohammed Al-Dura case. A French court found, that indeed the original broadcast claiming the child was killed by Israeli bullets was a hoax. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1211288137213
During Israel’s war with Hezbollah, as with the just ended Gaza offensive, there was a massive amount of fake photographs and videos – now known as fauxtography. And no, I didn’t coin the term. http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/22391_Fauxtography_Updates Another source for information on Israel’s war against terrorism is at: http://www.israel-wat.com/parent_eng.htm
They too are biased. But you have to ask yourself, “Are they telling the truth?”
Elizabeth,
I couldn’t help noticing that you are insinuating heavily that I’m not truthful. Yes, I do enjoy novels and poetry (I prefer John Donne, Robert Hayden, and Big Bill Shakespeare to Longfellow. He can be bombastic) in addition to short stories, comic books, comic strips, history, movies, and Jazz. (By the way, Pops, if ABNMOMMA could find some patriotic type Jazz as my theme music, not that I don’t appreciate Stars and Stripes Forever, I would thank her even more).
But let’s examine some things here. I’ve been answering all of your arguments while you’ve been dodging some of mine. One of the few things you responded to was to excuse the murder of a pregnant mother and her three young daughters. And it wasn’t the fact that you called them “settlers” that I found disturbing. You used the term to deny their humanity and justify their cold-blooded murder by terrorists. You have taken the side of barbarism over civilization.
Yes, they’re fighting a guerrilla war. But why? To destroy Israel, the lone democracy where freedom reigns. You tried to slam me because you and your friend were able to walk around Gaza and the West Bank with your hair uncovered. Is that your standard for freedom and civilized behavior? If so, you are setting the bar pretty low for both Hamas and Fatah. The question doesn’t even come up in Israel, speaking of double standards. And you never answered my question as to whether you two traveled alone or with Palestinian minders. The Hamas and Fatah charters, both of which call for the “liberation” of all Muslim lands between the river and the sea can easily be found on line.
As for using human shields, you once again allow Hamas all manner of barbarism in the name of their guerilla war. Israel’s supreme court ruled that the IDF was not allowed to use Palestinians as human shields. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israeli-use-of-human-shields-is-judged-illegal-509907.html
Hamas operates under no such constraints. And you refuse to acknowledge the depths of Hamas’ depravity. As one example, when the IAF warned of attacks on building housing civilians, Hamas would place women and children on the roofs of the buildings. That goes a bit beyond your nonsensical analogy of the recruiting center. When they hide behind you as they face men with guns, then you can claim to be a human shield. Perhaps if you read more novels and poetry, you could come up with better analogies.
The reason the Israelis have more than they started off with in 1948 is that the surrounding Arabs insisted in attacking the incipient Jewish state. They lost. It happened again a few more times over the years. That’s what happens in wars. Israel is the only country though to win wars and sue for peace – which has been denied by their Muslim neighbors.
From the Jerusalem Post, ” Hamas militiamen have rounded up hundreds of Fatah activists on suspicion of "collaboration" with Israel during Operation Cast Lead, Fatah members in the Gaza Strip told The Jerusalem Post on Monday. . . . A Fatah official in Ramallah told the Post that at least 100 of his men had been killed or wounded as a result of the massive Hamas crackdown. Some had been brutally tortured, he added.
The official said that the perpetrators belonged to Hamas's armed wing, Izaddin Kassam, and to the movement's Internal Security Force.
According to the official, at least three of the detainees had their eyes put out by their interrogators, who accused them of providing Israel with wartime information about the location of Hamas militiamen and officials.
A Fatah official in Ramallah told the Post that at least 100 of his men had been killed or wounded as a result of the massive Hamas crackdown. Some had been brutally tortured, he added.
The official said that the perpetrators belonged to Hamas's armed wing, Izaddin Kassam, and to the movement's Internal Security Force.”
Do you excuse this brutality because it too is part of Hamas’ guerrilla war that you support? In my eyes, these are some morally twisted people. You might disagree. If you do, then support your position. If all you’ve got is name calling, then you need to examine your beliefs on this issue.

Elizabeth said...

My comment was not to imply that you tell lies, Harry, but rather that you use florid, excessive language.

I never "excused" anyone's murder. You imagined that.

It is interesting that you seem to think it's ok for soldiers perched on guard towers to shoot kids who may or may not have been throwing bottles/rocks. I do not know anyone, anywhere, who would think that was ok (except you). The other incidents you start describing are unrelated and I don't know why you are bringing them up except perhaps to distract from the horror of Hedges' account.

As for Thomas L. Friedman...I could go on and on about him but let's cut to the chase. I hesitate to say this because I know many Jews who are involved in the anti-occupation movement...but the fact is Friedman is Jewish and he has an agenda. Hedges is neither Jewish nor Arab nor Muslim. What would his agenda be? I believe Hedges before Friedman, any day of the week.

Elizabeth said...

In a way this is not the main point however. The main point is if Israel wasn't engaging in a military occupation of the Palestinian Territories, kids would not be throwing rocks and soldiers and soldiers would not be shooting them.

Your trumpeting about the Arab desire for all of historic Palestine ignores the fact that there are many Jews who believe in an "Eretz Israel" which has no room for the Palestinians. Of course both sides have to make compromises for peace. You seem to think only one side has to do that.

Elizabeth said...

As for where and how I went in Palestine, I was there on two trips. In the West Bank, I stayed for two weeks in Dheisheh Refugee Camp on my second trip and I certainly walked around by myself during that time, in order to go shopping, pick up my laundry/dry cleaning, go to the bank etc. As for Gaza, I was only there for two days. Mostly I was with a friend and her Palestinian friends. However I did go out by myself to get breakfast once. This was all on the second trip. ON the first trip, I took a guided tour,as I didn't know anything about traveling in the area. At that time we traveled in a group. The only time we had an escort other than the tourguide was in Nablus.

ABNPOPPA said...

Elizabeth,

President Obama just outlawed torture of captured terrorists. Water boarding seemed to be the big issue. I will tell you this and "this" is what I told my Lutheran Pastor about 5 months before I left the Lutheran Church.

"I will water board/torture your mother until I run out of water if it will save the life of one American soldier or citizen."

Now having said that, I don't believe it is the best method to gain information but.....if necessary so be it.

I would presume you are against torture also regardless of who is doing it. Therefore, you would not support the Hamas torture that has been reported. Is that correct?

Pops

Lilia from Algeria said...

Salam,

Harry,

I don't know if you REALLY believe everything you say or just PRETEND to do so but I'd like you to give me your thoughts about this website run by Jews who are anti-Zionists (just like ME, a Muslim^^). Do you call them ANTI-Semites? Huh?

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

"True Torah Jews Against Zionism - Our Mission
The relatively new concept of Zionism began only about one hundred years ago and since that time Torah-true Jewry has steadfastly opposed the Zionist ideology. This struggle is rooted in two convictions:

Zionism, by advocating a political and military end to the Jewish exile, denies the very essence of our Diaspora existence. We are in exile by Divine Decree and may emerge from exile solely via Divine Redemption. All human efforts to alter a metaphysical reality are doomed to end in failure and bloodshed. History has clearly borne out this teaching.
Zionism has not only denied our fundamental belief in Heavenly Redemption it has also created a pseudo-Judaism which views the essence of our identity to be a secular nationalism. Accordingly, Zionism and the Israeli state have consistently endeavored, via persuasion and coercion, to replace a Divine and Torah centered understanding of our people hood with an armed materialism.
True Torah Jews is dedicated to informing the world and in particular the American public and politicians that all Jews do not support the ideology of the Zionist state called "Israel" which is diametrically opposite to the teachings of traditional Judaism.

We are concerned that the widespread misconception that all Jews support the zionist state and its actions endangers Jews worldwide.

We are NOT politically motivated. We are motivated by our concern for the peace and safety of all people throughout the world including those living in the Zionist state. We support and pray for peace for the people of the Zionist state but have no interest in and do not support the Zionist government.

We seek to disassociate Jews and traditional Judaism from the Zionist Ideology by:

Providing historical and supporting documentation that Zionism is totally contrary to the teachings of traditional Judaism through the words of our Rabbis, Sages, and Holy Scriptures which oppose the creation of a state called Israel.
Providing historical documentation on the ideaology and creation of Zionism, the supporters of Zionism and the negative impact of their actions on the Jewish people in the past hundred years, including their involvement in the holocaust up to the present day.
Publicizing the efforts of traditional Jews to demonstrate that all Jews do not support Zionism, which is being ignored by the mainstream media.
Convince the news media, politicians and the public to cease referring to the state of Israel as the "Jewish State" but to call it what it is: the "Zionist State".
It is our firm belief that when the state of "Israel" is recognized for what it is, a Zionist state which is not guided by the teachings of the traditional Jewish faith, Jews worldwide will be able to live in peace."

"Traditional Jews Are Not Zionists
Although there are those who refuse to accept the teachings of our Rabbis and will continue to support the Zionist state, there are also many who are totally unaware of the history of Zionism and its contradiction to the beliefs of Torah-True Jews. "

"Zionism Promotes Anti-Semitism
Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, recognized that anti-Semitism would further his cause, the creation of a separate state for Jews. To solve the Jewish Question, he maintained “we must, above all, make it an international political issue.”

Herzl wrote that Zionism offered the world a welcome “final solution of the Jewish question.” In his “Diaries”, page 19, Herzl stated “Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.”

Zionist reliance on Anti-Semitism to further their goals continues to this day. Studies of immigration records reflect increased immigration to the Zionist state during times of increased anti-Semitism. Without a continued inflow of Jewish immigrants to the state of "Israel", it is estimated that within a decade the Jewish population of the Zionist state will become the minority.

In order to maintain a Jewish majority in the state of "Israel", its leaders promote anti-Semitism throughout the world to "encourage" Jews to leave their homelands and seek "refuge".

Over the recent years there has been a dramatic rise in hate rhetoric and hate crimes targeted toward Jews:

In Turkey...horrifying suicide bombings at two synagogues left 25 people dead and hundreds more injured.
In Britain...Scotland Yard recently warned Britain's Jewish Community that it faced imminent terrorist attacks after police spotted and questioned a group of "tourists" taking covert videotape of the Jewish community buildings in London.
In France...a caution was issued after an arson attack gutted a suburban Paris Jewish school--the latest incident in a frightening wave of French anti-Semitism.
BBC - UK: "In recent weeks, a poll for the European Commission suggesting that EU citizens see Israel as the biggest threat to world peace caused outrage among Israelis."
Anti-Semitic acts are on the rise across Europe and beyond. From Antwerp and London to Berlin and Istanbul, Jews are living in fear.

On November 17, 2003 Zionist leader, Ariel Sharon, the Israeli prime minister, told Jews in Italy the best way to escape "a great wave of anti-Semitism" is to move and settle in the state of Israel. This has been the Zionist ideology from the beginning to the present time. "The best solution to anti-Semitism is immigration to Israel. It is the only place on Earth where Jews can live as Jews," he said.

July 28, 2004: 200 French Jews emigrated to Israel following a wave of Anti-Semitism. They were personally greeted by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, who recently urged French Jews to flee to Israel to escape rising anti-Semitism.

On July 18, 2004, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon urged all French Jews to move to Israel immediately to escape anti-Semitism. He told a meeting of the American Jewish Association in Jerusalem that Jews around the world should relocate to Israel as early as possible. But for those living in France, he added, moving was a "must" because of rising violence against Jews there. ""

So, Harry the "defender of truth, justice, liberty, and the downtrodden", what do you think of that? Do you think that some Palestinians or Muslims are behind this website?

BTW, are you a practising Jew or just a Zionist living in the US & calling yourself a Jew?

Here are some links to websites run by REAL Jews NOT Zionists:

http://www.nkusa.org/

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

(It is our hope that the information presented on this site will be of benefit to all and that we soon merit the peaceful dismantlement of the so-called "State of Israel" and that Jewish-Muslim brotherhood be restored as prior to the arrival of the Zionist scheme on the global scene.)

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/jews_against_zionism.html

"The posting of the above websites run by Jewish people opposed to Israel's policies prompted a strong reaction, indeed an over-reaction. Articles appeared on several pro-Zionist web sites denouncing this website for posting the list and denouncing any Jewish people who didn't support Ariel Sharon, dismissing them as a tiny minority of dissenters, kooks, "self hating Jews", and so forth.

So strong was the response that it called attention to itself. And it appears that popular support for Ariel Sharon may be as much of a manufactured media myth as are Bush's approval ratings.

It is easy to understand why Sharon's supporters are concerned. IDF up to the rank of General are refusing to attack civilians in Palestine. Israeli citizens are serving as human shields for Arafat. As the photos below prove, Jewish people of conscience are standing side by side with Arabs opposed to the Mideast wars and protesting in front of the Israeli embassy.

This is a critical problem for Sharon and his backers. They need the illusion that they have the support of 100% of the world's Jewish people so that they can deflect criticism by screaming "Jew hate" and "anti-Semite". Sharon and his supporters cannot justify or explain their actions against Arabs or their continued defiance of the United Nations, or their buildup of weapons of mass destruction. Their only defense is to be able to brand critics as "hate groups".

But those defenses all fall flat if Sharon's critics are themselves Jewish. The "self hating Jew" label has never worked to silence critics of Sharon's policies who are Jewish, and even Israeli. And the recent rampage of Sharon supporters engaging in hacking, threats, and obscene phone calls, is an admission that they know they have lost the argument on its merits. Only by blurring the line between criticism of Sharon's policies and racial hatred of Jews can Sharon and his supporters continue to evade the world's criticism for their war crimes. But as more and more Jewish people start to speak out against Sharon's policies, that device will simply cease to work. And that is why Sharon's supporters have reacted as strongly as they have to the suggestion that Jewish people are not in agreement with what is happening in Palestine."

http://www.doublestandards.org/jaz1.html

All you have to do is google 'Jews against Zionism' & you'll get more than you hope for. Correct your conduct before it's too late; listen to your brothers who ask you to conform to the real teachings of the Torah!

Lilia
Algeria

Lilia from Algeria said...

Salam,

ABNPOPPA,

Hope my post will enlighten you & correct the false image you have about the so called "state of Israel", which is actually against the teachings of the Torah. All the the websites I mention are run by real genuine Jewish people who are against Zionism & Zionist doings. So there is no point in brandishing the arm of anti-Semitism against me.

My regards to ABNMOMMA!

Salam
Lilia
Algeria

Harry said...

Lilia,
It is your paranoid conspiracy theories and desire to blame all of the evils in the world on the Jews – uh – I mean Zionists and the Mossad that first convinced me that you are anti-Semitic. But now you’ve taken it a step further. Now you are deciding who is and who isn’t a real Jew? Your credentials for that are - ? And I suppose that in return I can decide who is and who isn’t a real Muslim.

Since you are now a scholar of the Torah, perhaps you could enlighten poor, little, ignorant me on some of the finer points of the Torah’s anti-Zionism. Perhaps throw in a relevant midrash or two to help me truly understand the error of my ways. And please don’t quote any websites. I only want thoughts from your scholarship and your vast research into the depths of 3000 years of Jewish knowledge. If you quote anyone please make it a rabbi that you personally studied under. There must have been many of them.

Did you gain your knowledge in Algeria? Oh wait, are there any Jews left in Algeria? I mean “real Jews”, the kind you approve of, the ones who put up anti-Zionist websites. Do you even know if they’re Jewish? Or you just approve of their message?

We know that in 1955, there were about 140,000 Jews in Algeria. When the government started harassing them in 1962, 130,000 moved to France. Or was it the fault of Zionists, Mossad, and Ariel Sharon who encouraged anti-Semitism? There you go with another or your conspiracy theories. Are these real Jews of phony Jews who are engaged in these conspiracies? And are there any left in Algeria today, real or fake?

Some imams blamed the 2004 tsunami on “Zionists”. Do you agree or is that one even too stupid for you?

I once heard it said that Islam is not a monolith and that there are differing strains of thought within it. The same is true of Judaism. Some of the strains are anti-Zionist. Some are, and it pains me to say it, are anti-Semitic. Although most of these people consider themselves Jews in name only. If you weren’t so ignorant of Judaism, you would know that. And only the false pride that comes from staggering ignorance could claim to know who is and who isn’t a real Jew.

(Pops, I apologize for insulting a commenter on your blog, but over the years I’ve lost patience with people who know nothing about me or about my religion except what they’ve read by morally twisted Jew-haters, trying to tell me what I am or what I should believe in order to be a “true Jew”.)

By the way, if I recall my readings in Muslim history, Mohammed and his followers murdered all of the Jews in the Arabian Peninsula. And if I have the sequence correct, this was before the beginning of political Zionism. Or were Zionists, Ariel Sharon, and the Mossad already stirring up trouble and anti-Semitism back then? I hear that they, especially the Mossad, are pretty crafty.

Elizabeth,
Ahh, you must have thought I’d forgotten about you. Don’t worry, I haven’t.

I use florid excessive language to keep myself entertained during the tedium of gathering facts. I’ve been trying to keep the sarcasm to a minimum. But I’ve been in this argument with too many others to be entertained by it.

You did excuse murder. Your exact words in reaction to the murder of a mother and her four daughters were, “ . . . those people you mentioned who got killed, the settlers, were killed because they were doing the equivalent of breaking into your house in the middle of the night and stealing your stuff. . . . What do you do when the police don't enforce the law...most people in such situations become vigilantes.”

If that’s not excusing murder, I’m a vermicious knid! (Darn! Now I’ve started with the name calling!)

If soldiers perched in guard towers were truly trying to murder kids, there would be many more dead kids. And if you can show where I thought it was OK, especially since it’s Hamas that’s doing all of the kid murdering, both of their own (you know, the whole human shield thing that you try to deny and/or minimize) and of Israeli kids with rockets, homicide bombers, and snipers. (Say, would they be just part of that guerrilla war that you used to excuse the horror and barbarity of the murder of Tali Hatuel and her daughters.)

Main point: Israel would have no need to fight if the surrounding Muslims had not been trying to drive them into the sea for the past few generations. The Jews who believe that Israel has no room for Palestinians have not been trying to murder the over one million Muslims who live inside of Israel. Isn’t that interesting? Muslims can live peacefully in Israel, but Jews can’t live in any of the surrounding Muslim countries.

As for making compromises, Israel uprooted thousands of Israelis in order to return the Sinai to Egypt, who not only didn’t want Gaza, but now have them walled off from Egypt so that Gazans have to dig tunnels in order to smuggle in their weapons. Horrors! Oh, wait, no, it’s OK. Egypt isn’t Israel.

Israel uprooted thousands of more Israelis and forced them out of Gaza, made it judenrein (free of Jews). Do you recall the result of that move? It wasn’t peace. Of course, the way Egypt has them walled in, who can blame them for destroying the infrastructure that Israel left, including the greenhouses that could be producing millions of dollars in earned income for their economy? Israel was preparing to uproot more thousands of Israelis from the West Bank when Hamas and Hezbollah started the war in 2006. Oops! That makes a liar out of me. There is one Jew in Gaza, Gilad Shalit, a kidnapped soldier who may be alive or dead, but we know he was tortured, because that’s what they do.

And then there are the thousands of Palestinians that Israel has released from its jails as good will gestures. They let out Samir Kuntar to great acclaim and applause across the Muslim world. He was incarcerated because in 1978, he and some companions infiltrated Israel from Lebanon. He murdered a man in front of his four-year-old daughter and then killed her by smashing her head against a rock with his rifle butt. Settlers? Guerilla warfare? You decide how you want to excuse that one. While in prison, Kuntar was able to get an education and get married. That must be the torture that terrorists are always claiming happens in Israeli jails.

So what kinds of compromises have the Palestinians made in return? As I recall, at each compromise from Israel, they demand more.

Final question for 100 points: As a psychotherapist, how would you diagnose a person who looks at a country, oh like Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East, highest standard of living, giving the world advances in technology, medicine, agriculture, made the desert bloom, took in almost a million refugees in the late 1940s when they’d been kicked out of Muslim nations because they were Jewish, and rather than sentence them and their descendents to lives of hopelessness in refugee camps, integrated them into a thriving multicultural society, and calls it evil?

At the same time, this person looks at another group of people, and for want of a better term, let’s call them Palestinian, who have contributed nothing to the world, have lived off the largess of the Western world, and who have created a society whose one goal is the destruction of Israel, remember the REAL (and only a deluded fool would claim otherwise) country with a functioning government, and calls them good?

Keep in mind that there is abundant evidence of the depravity, the dysfunction, and the rampant corruption of Palestinian society, news reports, photos, and videos of Palestinians in action, engaging in incitement, torture and murder (of suspected collaborators, so maybe a guerrilla war makes that OK?) and the most vicious and dehumanizing anti-Semitism. This person, though, turns it around and blames all of these characteristics on Israel. Are these symptoms of something serious?

Elizabeth said...

Yes, I am against torture, regardless of who is doing it. There is severe conflict between Hamas and Fateh and this is tragic. I am not familiar with all the details, but I am under the impression both groups have committed torture and killings of each others' members.

Lilia from Algeria said...

Harry,

A classic response! Brandishing the arm of anti-Semitism each time a person (whatever his/her religion or beliefs) 'dares' to criticise the so called 'State of Israel'.

Harry, if I were a Jew-hater believe me I'd not only say it in plain words but also "blame all of the evils in the world on the Jews". But I'm NOT. PERIOD. Will you accuse me now of being a liar? You're free to think whatever you want.

Those websites are run by religious Jews who explain in a logical way with supporting material from the Torah, Talmud & rabbinical leaders everything they claim. Of course I'm not an expert on Judaism & never made such a claim, I haven't reached yet your deep knowledge about other religions, on top of which Islam. How many Muslim scholars & Imams you've been studying under all these years?

"This site was created to provide historical documentation refuting the misconception that all Jewry supports Zionism (the existence of the so-called "State of Israel") for website visitors seeking information on the history of Zionism, its historical and current day impact on the Jewish community worldwide and the danger it presents to us all.

For decades renowned Rabbinical leaders and scholars have opposed the creation of a "Jewish State", supporting their opposition with words of the scriptures and of the Torah, as being diametrically opposed to the ideology of Judaism. We have provided many such quotations for the inquiring website visitor who is seeking such information.

Although there are those who refuse to accept the teachings of our Rabbis and will continue to support the Zionist state, there are also many who are totally unaware of the history of Zionism and its contradiction to the beliefs of Torah-True Jews."

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/index.cfm

"Three Strong Oaths

The true Jewish position on Zionism and the state called Israel is found in the Scriptures in the Talmud and in the oral traditions transmitted to us by our parents and teachers.

At the outset of the Jews' exile to Babylonia, the Prophet Jeremiah, in chapter 29 of his book proclaimed G-d's message to all the exiled…Verse seven reads, "Seek out the welfare of the city to which I have exiled you and pray for it to the Almighty, for through its welfare will you have welfare." This has been a cornerstone of Jewish "foreign policy" how to behave in the lands of the nations throughout our ensuing exiles till this very day.

There Jeremiah adds in the name of G-d (verses 8 and 9), "Do not let your false prophets among you and your sorcerers seduce you, do not head your dreamers which you cause them to dream. For they speak falsely to you in My name. I did not send them." This too has applied to all the would-be misleaders of Jewry whether they presented themselves as prophets or as sorcerers or as dreamers of national aspirations.

King Solomon in Song of Songs thrice adjured the "daughters of Jerusalem" not to arouse or bestir the love until it is ready." The Talmud explains That we have been foresworn, by three strong oaths, not to ascend to the Holy Land as a group using force, not to rebel against the governments of countries in which we live, and not by our sins, to prolong the coming of moshiach; as is written in Tractate Kesubos 111a .

Throughout the seventy years of the Babylonian exile, throughout the 200 years of the Hellenic exile and throughout the 1917 since the destruction of G-d's Holy House, we have steadfastly maintained our loyalty to G-d and have not transgressed His oaths. And we have prayed for the welfare of the cities and the countries of our host nations that did not oppress us, and in their welfare we indeed always found ours.

Whoever violates Jeremiah's principles or Solomon's oaths immediately imperils the welfare of Jews locally and elsewhere in the world."

"The Torah Position on the Current Conflict in Gaza
Jan 4, 2009

Once again, we find ourselves reading horrifying headlines regarding the unrest in the Middle East. In one long chain of tragedies and civilian bloodshed, residential neighborhoods have been transformed into war zones, the daily lives of civilians distorted by ever-present shadows of terror and fright.

Our readers have long been familiar with the Torah position; let us re-announce it boldly and clearly:

The Zionist ideology is antithetical to the Torah. Zionism was deviously designed to replace the Torah and its holy, God-given commandments with nationalistic, power-driven ideals that are devoid of holiness, godliness, or spirituality.

God-fearing Jews believe that the ultimate Redemption of the Jewish Nation will come about only through the Hands of God, and that at the time of the Redemption, peace will reign in the entire world. Any other type of forced redemption is but a sinful transgression, condemned by God and His Holy Torah.

What more proof does one need than the fact that for centuries, Jews have lived peacefully in Arabic countries, enjoying the respect and friendship of their neighbors? The tragedy of Zionism changed all of that. The painful truth is that in the eyes of the Zionist government, Jews are merely the cannon-fodder needed for the State of Israel to achieve its agenda.

Obviously, the State of Israel has absolutely no connection with either Jews or Judaism. Furthermore, Torah-true Jews did not participate in the founding of the State, and for decades, we have announced our disapproval and disassociation from the State of Israel at every opportunity.

"The following explanation clarifies this issue beautifully: Would the Jews be held responsible in a conflict between North Korea and South Korea? Obviously not! In the same way, Jews should not be held responsible for the Zionists conflicts with their neighbors. The State of Israel has as much to do with Jews and Judaism as does New Zealand or Zimbabwe," said Rabbi Hersh Lowenthal.

May it be clear to every nation, to every person in the entire world: JEWS ARE NOT ZIONISTS!

The Zionists are neither our representatives nor our spokesmen. They have absolutely no right to speak in the name of world Jewry. It is a terrible mistake to confuse Jews with Zionism, or to blame Jews for Zionist actions. We truly wish to live in peace with every nation in the world. We pray for our Jewish brethren as well as for the non-Jews in the Middle East, that they may be saved from danger and peril.

And most of all, we await that great day when G-d's glory will be revealed in the entire world, and there will be peace for all of humanity. Amen."

You want to hear what Rabbis say about Zionism? Here's a link where you can find them:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/index.cfm

Rabbis before World War I
Rabbis before World War II
Rabbis after World War II
Joint Statements Issued by Rabbis in many parts of the world Opposing Zionism

“The following is a collection of teachings of our Sages instructing us to await redemption by G-d Himself, and not to attempt to undertake our redemption ourselves before the Divinely-decreed time:

- The survival of the Jewish People during the exile is only because they are dispersed throughout the world, which saves them from annihilation.

- The Three Oaths that G-d adjured the Jewish People to be upheld under Exile

- Any Jewish sovereignty during the time of the Exile delays the arrival of the Messiah

- The freedom from the subjugation of kingdoms depends on the coming of the Messiah

- The dispersion of the Jewish People among the nations maintains the existence of the world, because through this the Torah and Faith are disseminated throughout the world

- The chronology of the Redemption and the Ingathering of the Exiles, and that it will take place only through G d Himself

- The future Redemption will not be through any human intermediary as was the case in past redemptions. Only G-d Himself will redeem us with an everlasting redemption

- Redemption through human means has no permanence, but in the future we will be redeemed by G-d Himself, and therefore it will be an everlasting redemption

- The Exile and the Redemption only belongs to G d Himself, and He assured us that He Himself shall redeem us at the time he deems appropriate

- Being under the jurisdiction of other nations relieves us from the punishment of Gehennom

- During the exile, The Divine Presence leaves the Temple site and will return to its place when the Messiah arrives

- By virtue of the fact that the Jewish People is scattered among many nations, there will always be a community that is a surviving remnant.

- Even when we are in the very low ebb of the exile, we will not despair of the heavenly Redemption

- A great reward is set aside for those who wait patiently for the Redemption

- The great virtue of The Jewish People when they wait patiently for the Redemption

- If the Redemption of The Jewish People takes place at its prescribed time it will be very good, but if takes place prematurely, this will be a great evil and cannot succeed at all.

- A strong and determined conviction is necessary to wait out the period before the divine Redemption. This can be brought about and strengthened only through faith and close attention to the scriptural promises of the Redempton

- A parable from the Midrash concerning the above point

- Redemption through human effort is not permanent, but in the future we will be redeemed through G-d Himself, and it will therefore be an everlasting Redemption

- Not to transgress the oaths, even if we are given over to be killed

- The ingathering of the exiles is only permitted for Messiah to do, and we are under oath not to attempt this on our own.

- At the end time the Redemption will not be delayed; rather, it will arrive with its full strength

- The survival of The Jewish People during the exile is only through the fact that they are dispersed throughout the world, which saves them from exterminated by other nations

- The survival of The Jewish People during the exile is only through the fact that they are dispersed throughout the world, which saves them from exterminated by other nations

- The harsh enslavement of the Jews in Egypt did not start until the Children of the Tribe of Ephraim left Egyptian exile prematurely.

- The Redemption of the Jewish People from this final exile will only be in the merit of those who wait for it and do not attempt to hasten it before its proper time.

- Even after the coming of the Messiah, the Jewish People will fear that perhaps the time of the true Redemption has not yet arrived because they know the severity of a premature redemption.

- Prior to the Redemption, Elijah the Prophet will come to announce the arrival of the Messiah

- Before the Redemption the Jewish People will repent from their sins

- When the nations of the world lose hope about our Redemption, then the Messiah will come

- Not to rebel against the nations, even where life is at stake. By rebelling against them we enter,

- The exile is necessary to recover the “holy sparks”

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/scriptures/scriptures/scriptures1.pdf

Almost everything is in English & Hebrew (I couldn't copy/past Hebrew on this window).

What can I add? You can explore the website & check if it's really run by Jews.

Salam
Lilia
Algeria

Lilia from Algeria said...

Harry,

Re: "Mohammed and his followers murdered all of the Jews in the Arabian Peninsula"

This is what really happened:

***From Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland, (1976), pp. 100-107***

IT IS WELL KNOWN THAT at the advent of Islam there were three Jewish tribes who lived in Yathrib (later Medina), as well as other Jewish settlements further to the north, the most important of which were Khaybar and Fadak. It is also generally accepted that at first the Prophet Muhammad hoped that the Jews of Yathrib, as followers of a divine religion, would show understanding of the new monotheistic religion, Islam. However, as soon as these tribes realized that Islam was being firmly established and gaining power, they adopted an actively hostile attitude, and the final result of the struggle was the disappearance of these Jewish communities from Arabia proper.

The biographers of the Prophet, followed by later historians, tell us that Banu Qaynuqa.,1 and later Banu al-Nadir,2 provoked the Muslims, were besieged, and in turn agreed to surrender and were allowed to depart, taking with them all their transportable possessions. Later on Khaybar3 and Fadak4 were evacuated. According to Ibn Ishaq in the Sira,5 the third of the Jewish tribes, Banu Qurayza, sided with the Qurashites and their allies, who made an unsuccessful attack on Medina in an attempt to destroy Islam. This, the most serious challenge to Islam, failed, and the Banu Qurayza were in turn besieged by the Prophet. Like Banu al-Nadir, in time they surrendered, but unlike the Banu al-Nadir, they were subjected to the arbitration of Sa'd b. Mu'adh, a member of the Aws tribe, allies of Qurayza. He ruled that the grown-up males should be put to death and the women and children subjected to slavery. Consequentiy, trenches were dug in the market-place in Medina, and the men of Qurayza were brought out in groups and their necks were struck.6 Estimates of those killed vary from 400 to 900.

On examination, details of the story can he challenged. It can be demonstrated that the assertion that 600 or 800 or 9007 men of Banu Qurayza were put to death in cold blood can not be true; that it is a later invention; and that it has its source in Jewish traditions. Indeed the source of the details in earlier Jewish history can be pointed out with surprising accuracy.

The Arabic sources will now be surveyed, and the contribution of their Jewish informants will be discussed. The credibility of the details will then be assessed, and the prototype in earlier Jewish history pin-pointed.

The earliest work that we have, with the widest range of details, is Ibn Ishaq's Sira, his biography of the Prophet. It is also the longest and the most widely quoted. Later historians draw, and in most cases depend on him.8 But Ibn Ishaq died in 151 A.H., i.e. 145 years after the event in question. Later historians simply take his version of the story, omitting more or less of the detail, and overlooking his uncertain list of authorities. They generally abbreviate the story, which appears just as one more event to report. In most cases their interest seems to end there. Some of them indicate that they are not really convinced, but they are not prepared to take further trouble. One authority, Ibn Hajar, however, denounces this story and the other related ones as "odd tales".9 A contemporary of Ibn Ishaq, Malik,10 the jurist, denounces Ibn Ishaq outright as "a liar"11 and "an impostor"12 just for transmitting such stories.

It must be remembered that historians and authors of the Prophet's biography did not apply the strict rules of the "traditionists". They did not always provide a chain of authorities, each of whom had to be verified as trustworthy and as certain or likely to have transmitted his report directly from his informant, and so on. The attitude towards biographical details and towards the early events of Islam was far less meticulous than their attitude to the Prophet's traditions, or indeed to any material relevant to jurisprudence. Indeed Ibn Ishaq's account of the siege of Medina and the fall of the Banu Qurayza is pieced together by him from information given by a variety of persons he names, including Muslim descendants of the Jews of Qurayza.

Against these late and uncertain sources must be placed the only contemporary and entirely authentic source, the Qur'an. There, the reference in Sura XXXIII, 26 is very brief:

"He caused those of the People of the Book who helped them (i.e. the Quraysh) to come out of their forts. Some you killed, some you took prisoner." There is no reference to numbers.

Ibn Ishaq sets out his direct sources as he opens the relevant chapter on the siege of Medina. These were: a client of the family of al-Zubayr and others whom he "did not suspect". They told parts of the story on the authority of 'Abdullah b. Ka'b b. Malik, al Zuhri, 'Asim b. 'Umar b. Qatada, 'Abdullab b. Abi Bakr, Muhammad b. Ka'b of Qurayza, and "others among our men of learning", as he put it. Each of these contributed to the story, so that Ibn Ishaq's version is the sum total of the collective reports, pieced together. At a later stage Ibn Ishaq quotes another descendant of Qurayza, 'Attiyya13 by name, who had been spared, and, directly, a certain descendant of al-Zabir b. Bata, a prominent member of the tribe of Qurayza who figures in the narrative.

The story opens with a description of the effort of named Jewish leaders to organize against the Muslims an alliance of the hostile forces. The leaders named included three from the Banu al-Nadir and two of the tribe of Wa'il, another Jewish tribe; together with other Jewish fellow-tribesmen unnamed. Having persuaded the neighbouring Bedouin tribes of Ghatafan, Murra, Fazara, Sulaym, and Ashja' to take up arms, they now proceeded to Mecca where they succeeded in persuading the Quraysh. Having gathered together a besieging force, one of the Nadir leaders, Huyayy b. Akhtab, in effect forced himself on the third Jewish tribe still in Medina, the Banu Qurayza, and, against the better judgement of their leader, Ka'b b. Asad, he persuaded them to break faith with the Prophet in the hope, presented as a certainty, that the Muslims would not stand up to the combined attacking forces and that Qurayza and the other Jews would be restored to independent supremacy. The siege of Medina failed and the Jewish tribes suffered for their part in the whole operation.

The attitude of scholars and historians to Ibn lshaq's version of the story has been either one of complacency, sometimes mingled with uncertainty, or at least in two important cases, one of condemnatlon and outright rejection.

The complacent attitude is one of accepting the biography of the Prophet and the stories of the campaigns at they were received by later generations without the meticulous care or the application of the critical criteria which collectors of traditions or jurists employed. It was not necessary to check the veracity of authorities when transmitting or recording parts of the story of the Prophet's life.14 It was not essential to provide a continuous chain of authorities or even to give authorities at all. That is obvious in Ibn Ishaq's Sira. On the other hand reliable authority and a continuous line of transmission were essential when law was the issue. That is why Malik the jurist had no regard for Ibn Ishaq.15

One finds, therefore, that later historians and even exegetes either repeat the very words of Ibn Ishaq or else abbreviate the whole story. Historians gave it, as it were, a cold reception. Even Tabari, nearly 150 years after Ibn Ishaq, does not try to find other versions of the story as he usually does. He casts doubt by his use of the words, "Waqidi alleged (za'ama) that the Prophet caused trenches to be dug." Ibn ai-Qayyim in Zad al-ma'ad makes only the briefest reference and he ignores altogether the crucial question of numbers. Ibn Kathir even seems to have general doubt in his mind because he takes the trouble to point out that the story was told on such "good authority" as that of 'A'isha.16

Apart from mild complacency or doubtful acceptance of the story itself, Ibn Ishaq as an author was in fact subjected to devastating attacks by scholars, contemporary or later, on two particular accounts. One was his uncritical inclusion in his Sira of so much spurious or forged poetry;17 the other his unquestioning acceptance of just such a story as that of the slaughter of Banu Qurayza.

His contemporary, the early traditionist and jurist Malik, called him unequivocally "a liar" and "an impostor"18 "who transmits his stories from the Jews".19 In other words, applying his own criteria, Malik impugned the veracity of Ibn Ishaq's sources and rejected his approach. Indeed, neither Ibn Ishaq's list of informants nor his method of collecting and piecing together such a story would he acceptable to Malik the jurist.

In a later age Ibn Hajar further explained the point of Malik's condemnation of Ibn Ishaq. Malik, he said,20 condemned Ibn Ishaq because he made a point of seeking out descendants of the Jews of Medina in order to obtain from them accounts of the Prophet's campaigns as handed down by their forefathers. Ibn Hajar21 then rejected the stories in question in the strongest terms: "such odd tales as the story of Qurayza and al-Nadir". Nothing could be more damning than this outright rejection.

Against the late and uncertain sources on the one hand, and the condemning authorities on the other, must be set the only contemporary and entirely authentic source, the Qur'an. There the reference in Sura XXXIII, 26 is very brief: "He caused those of the People of the Book who helped them (i.e. the Quraysh) to come out of their forts. Some you killed, some you took prisoner."

Exegetes and traditionists tend simply to repeat Ibn Ishaq's tale, but in the Qur'an the reference can only be to those who were actually in the fighting. This is a statement about the battle. It concerns those who fought. Some of these were killed. others were taken prisoner.

One would think that if 600 or 900 people were killed in this manner the significance of the event would have been greater. There would have been a clearer reference in the Qur'an, a conclusion to be drawn, and a lesson to be learnt. But when only the guilty leaders were executed, it would be normal to expect only a brief reference.

So much for the sources: they were neither uninterested nor trustworthy; and the report was very late in time. Now for the story. The reasons for rejecting the story are the following:

(i) As already stated above, the reference to the story in the Qur'an is extremely brief, and there is no indication whatever of the killing of a large number. In a battle context the reference is to those who were actually fighting. The Qur'an is the only authority which the historian would accept without hesitation or doubt. It is a contemporary text, and, for the most cogent reasons, what we have is the authentic version.

(ii) The rule in Islam is to punish only those who were responsible for the sedition.

(iii) To kill such a large number is diametrically opposed to the Islamic sense of justice and to the basic principles laid down in the Qur'an - particularly the verse. "No soul shall bear another's burden."22 It is obvious in the story that the leaders were numbered and were well known. They were named.

(iv) It it also against the Qur'anic rule regarding prisoners of war, which is: either they are to be granted their freedom or else they are to be allowed to be ransomed.23

(v) It is unlikely that the Banu Qurayza should be slaughtered when the other Jewish groups who surrendered before Banu Qurayza and after them were treated leniently and allowed to go. Indeed Abu 'Ubayd b. Sallam relates in his Kitab al-amwal24 that when Khaybar felt to the Muslims there were among the residents a particular family or clan who had distinguished themselves by execesive unseemly abuse of the Prophet. Yet in that hour the Prophet addressed them in words which are no more than a rebuke: "Sons of Abu al-Huqayq (he said to them) I have known the extent of your hostility to God and to His apostle, yet that does not prevent me from treating you as I treated your brethren." That was after the surrender of Banu Qurayza.

(vi) If indeed so many hundreds of people had actually been put to death in the market-place, and trenches were dug for the operation, it is very strange that there should be no trace whatever of all that - no sign or word to point to the place, and no reference to a visible mark.25

(vii) Had this slaughter actually happened, jurists would have adopted it as a precedent. In fact exactly the opposite has been the case. The attitude of jurists, and their rulings, have been more according to the Qur'anic rule in the verse, "No soul shall bear another's burden."

Indeed, Abu 'Ubayd b. Sallam relates a very significant incident in his book Kifab al-amwal,26 which, it must be noted, is a book of jurisprudence, of law, not a sira or a biography. He tells us that in the time of the Imam al-Awza'i27 there was a case of trouble among a group of the People of the Book in the Lebanon when 'Abdullab b. 'All was regional governor. He put down the sedition and ordered the community in question to be moved elsewhere. Al-Awza'i in his capacity as the leading jurist immediately objected. His argument was that the incident was not the result of the cormmunity's unanimous agreement. "At far as I know (he argued) it is not a rule of God that God should punish the many for the fault of the few but punish the few for the fault of the many."

Now, had the Imam al-Awza'i accepted the story of the slaughter of Banu Qurayza, he would have treated it as a precedent, and would not have come out with an argument against Authority, represented in 'Abdullah b. 'Ali. Al-Awza'i, it should be remembered, was a younger contemporary of Ibn Ishaq.

(viii) In the story of Qurayza a few specific persons were named as having been put to death, some of whom were described as particularly active in their hostility. It is the reasonable conclusion that those were the ones who led the sedition and who were consequently punished - not the whole tribe.

(ix) The details given in the story clearly and of necessity imply inside knowledge, i.e. from among the Jews themselves. Such are the details of their consultation when they were besieged, the harangue of Ka'b b. Asad as their leader; and the suggestion that they should kill their women and children and then make a last desperate attack against the Muslims.

(x) Just as the descendants of Qurayza would want to glorify their ancestors, so did the descendants of the Madanese connected with the event. One notices that that part of the story which concerned the judgement of Sa'd b. Mu'adh against Qurayza, was transmitted from one of his direct descendants. According to this part the Prophet said to Mu'adh: "You have pronounced God's judgement upon them [as inspired] through Seven Veils."28

Now it is well known that for the purposes of glorifying their ancestors or white washing those who were inimical to Islam at the beginning, many stories were invented by later generations and a vast amount of verse was forged, much of which was transmitted by Ibn Ishaq. The story and the statement concerning Sa'd are one such detail.

(xi) Other details are difficult to accept. How could so many hundreds of persons he incarcerated in the house belonging to a woman of Banu al-Najjar?29

(xii) The history of the Jewish tribes after the establishment of Islam is not really clear at all. The idea that they all departed on the spot seems to be in need of revision, as can be seen on examining the sources. For example, in his Jamharat al-ansab,30 Ibn Hazm occasionally refers to Jews still living in Medina. In two places al-Waqidi31 mentions Jews who were still in Medina when the Prophet prepared to march against Khaybar - i.e. after the supposed liquidation of all three tribes, including Qurayza. In one case ten Madanese Jews actually joined the Prophet in an excursion to Khaybar, and in the other the Jews who had made their peace with him in Medina were extremely worried when he prepared to attack Khaybar. Al-Waqadi explains that they tried to prevent the departure of any Muslim who owed them money.

Indeed Ibn Kathir32 takes the trouble to point out that 'Umar expelled only those Jews of Khaybar who had not made a peace agreement with the Prophet. Ibn Kathir then proceeds to explain that at a much later date, i.e. after the year 300 A.H., the Jews of Khaybar claimed that they had in their possession a document allegedly given them by the Prophet which exempted them from poll-tax. He said that some scholars were taken in by this document so that they ruled that the Jews of Khaybar should be exempted. However, that was a forged letter and had been refuted in detail. It quoted persons who were already dead, it used technical terms which came into being at a later time, it claimed that Mu'awiya b. Abi Sufyan witnessed it, when in fact he had not even been converted to Islam at that time, and so on.

So then the real source of this unacceptable story of slaughter was the descendants of the Jews of Medina, from whom Ibn Ishaq took these "odd tales". For doing so Ibn Ishaq was severely criticized by other scholars and historians and was called by Malik an impostor.

The sources of the story are, therefore, extremely doubtful and the details are diametrically opposed to the spirit of Islam and the rules of the Qur'an to make the story credible. Credible authority is lacking, and circumstantial evidence does not support it. This means that the story is more than doubtful.

However, the story, in my view, has its origins in earlier events. Is can be shown that it reproduces similar stories which survived from the account of the Jewish rebellion against the Romans, which ended in the destruction of the temple in the year AD. 73, the night of the Jewish zealots and sicarii to the rock fortress of Masada, and the final liquidation of the besieged. Stories of their experience were naturally transmitted by Jewish survivors who fled south. Indeed one of the more plausible theories of the origin of the Jews of Medina is that they came after the Jewish wars. This was the theory preferred by the late Professor Guillaume.33

As is well known, the source of the details of the Jewish wars is Flavius Josephus, himself a Jew and a contemporary witness who held office under the Romans, who disapproved of certain actions which some of the rebels committed, but who nevertheless never ceased to be a Jew at heart. It is in his writings that we read of details which are closely similar to those transmitted to us in the Sira about the actions and the resistance of the Jews, except that now we see the responsibility for the actions placed on the Muslims.

In considering details of the story of Banu Qurayza as told by the descendants of that tribe, we may note the following similar details in the account of Josephus:

(i) According to Josephus,34 Alexander, who ruled in Jerusalem before Herod the Great, hung upon crosses 800 Jewish captives, and slaughtered their wives and children before their eyes.

(ii) Similarly, large numbers were killed by others.

(iii) Important details of the two stories are remarkably similar, particularly the numbers of those killed. At Masada the number of those who died at the end was 960.35 The hot-headed sicarii who were eventually also killed numbered 600.36 We also read that when they reached the point of despair they were addressed by their leader Eleazar (precisely as Ka'b b. Asad addressed the Banu Qurayza),37 who suggested to them the killing of their women and children. At the ultimate point of complete despair the plan of killing each other to the last man was proposed.

Clearly the similarity of details is most striking. Not only are the suggestions of mass suicide similar but even the numbers are almost the same. Even the same names occur in both accounts. There is Phineas, and Azar b. Azar,38 just as Eleazar addressed the Jews besieged in Masada.

There is, indeed, more than a mere similarity. Here we have the prototype - indeed, I would suggest, the origin of the story of Banu Qurayza, preserved by descendants of the Jews who fled south to Arabia after the Jewish Wars, just as Josephus recorded the same story for the Classical world. A later generation of these descendants superimposed details of the siege of Masada on the story of the siege of Banu Qurayza, perhaps by confusing a tradition of their distant past with one from their less remote history. The mixture provided Ibn Ishaq's story. When Muslim historians ignored it or transmitted it without comment or with cold lack of interest, they only expressed lack of enthusiasm for a strange tale, as Ibn Hajar called it.

One last point. Since the above was first written, I have seen reports39 of a paper given in August 1973 at the World Congress of Jewish Studies by Dr. Trude Weiss-Rosmarin, in which she challenges Josephus' assertion that 960 besieged Jews committed suicide at Masada. This is highly interesting since in the story of Qurayza the 960 or so Jews refused to commit suicide. Who knows, perhaps the Story of Banu Qurayza is an even more accurate form of the original version.

Footnotes

1. Ibn Ishaq, Sira (ed. Wustenfeld, Gottingen, 1860), 545-7; (ed. Saqqa et al., Cairo, 1955), II, 47-9. See also al-Waqidi, Kitab al-maghazi (ed. M. Jones, London, 1966), II, 440 ff.; Suhayl, al-Rawd al-unuf (Cairo, 1914), I, 187 et passim; Ibn Kathir, al-Sira al-Nabawiya (ed. Mustafa `Abd al-Wahid, Cairo, 1384-5/1964-6), II, 5, et passim.

2. Sira, 545-56, 652-61/II, 51-7, 190-202; Ibn Kathir, oop. cit., III, 145 ff.

3. Sira, 755-76, 779/II, 328-53, 356, etc. More on Khaybar follows below.

4. ibid., 776/II, 353-4.

5. ibid., 668-84/II, 214-33.

6. ibid., 684-700/II, 233-54.

7. ibid., 689/II, 240; `Uyun al-athar (Cairo, 1356 A.H.), II, 73; Ibn Kathir, II, 239.

8. In his introduction to `Uyun al-athar, I, 7, Ibn Sayyid al-Nas (d. 734 A.H.), having explained his plan for his biography of the Prophet, expressly states that his main source was Ibn Ishaq, who indeed was the chief source for everyone.

9. Tahdhib al-tahdhib, IX, 45. See also `Uyun al-athar, I, 17, where the author uses the same words, without giving a reference, in his introduction on the veracity of Ibn Ishaq and the criteria he applied.

10. d. 179.

11. `Uyun al-athar, I, 12.

12. ibid, I, 16.

13. Sira, 691-2/II, 242, 244; `Uyun al-athar, II, 74, 75.

14. Ibn Sayyid al-Nas (op. cit., I, 121) makes precisely this point in relation to the story of the Banu Qaynuqa' and the spurious verse which was said to have appeared in Sura LIII of the Qur'an and at the time was taken by polytheist Meccans as a recognition of their deities. The author explains how various scholars disposed of the problem and then sums up by stating that in his view, this story is to be treated on the same level as tales of the maghazi and accounts of the Sira (i.e. not to be accorded unqualified acceptance). Most scholars, he asserts, usually treated more liberally questions of minor importance and any material which did not involve a point of law, such as stories of the maghazi and similar reports. In such cases data would be accepted which would not be acceptable as a basis of deciding what is lawful or unlawful.

15. See n. 18 below.

16. Tabari, Tarikh, I, 1499 (where the reference is to al-Waqidi, Maghazi, II, 513); Zad al-ma`ad (ed. T. A. Taha, Cairo, 1970), II, 82; Ibn Kathir, op. cit., IV, 118.

17. On this see W. Arafat, "Early critics of the poetry of the Sira", BSOAS, XXI, 3, 1958, 453-63.

18. Kadhdhab and Dajjal min al-dajajila.

19. `Uyun al-athar, I, 16-7. In his valuable introduction Ibn Sayyid al-Nas provides a wide-ranging survey of the controversial views on Ibn Ishaq. In his full introduction to the Gottingen edition of the Sira, Wustenfeld in turn draws extensively on Ibn Sayyid al-Nas.

20. Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, IX, 45. See also `Uyun al-athar, I, 16-7.

21. ibid.

22. Qur'an, XXXV, 18.

23. Qur'an, XLI, 4.

24. ed. Khalil Muhammad Harras, Cairo, 1388/1968, 241.

25. Significantly, little or no information is to be found in general or special geographical dictionaries, such as al-Bakri's, Mu`jam ma'sta`jam; al-Fairuzabadi's al-Maghanim al-mutaba fi ma`alim taba (ed. Hamad al-Jasir, Dar al-Yamama, 1389/1969); Six treatises (Rasa'il fi tarikh al-Madina ed. Hamad al-Jasir, Dar al-Yamama, 1392/1972); al-Samhudi, Wafa' al-wafa' bi-akhbar dar al-Mustafa (Cairo, 1326), etc. Even al-Samhudi seems to regard a mention of the market-place in question as a mere historical reference, for in his extensive historical topography of Medina he identifies the market-place (p. 544) almost casually in the course of explaining the change in nomenclature which had overtaken adjacent landmarks. That market-place, he says, is the one referred to in the report (sic) that the Prophet brought out the prisoners of Banu Qurayza to the market-place of Medina, etc.

26. p. 247. I am indebted to my friend Professor Mahmud Ghul of the American University, Beirut, for bringing this reference to my attention.

27. d. 157/774. See EI2, sub nomine.

28. Sira, 689/II, 240; al-Waqidi, op. cit., 512.

29. Sira, 689/II, 240; Ibn Kathir, op. cit., III, 238.

30. e.g., Nasab Quraysh (ed. A. S. Harun, Cairo, 1962), 340.

31. op. cit., II, 634, 684.

32. op. cit., III, 415.

33. A. Guillaume, Islam (Harmondsworth, 1956), 10-11.

34. De bello Judaico, I, 4, 6.

35. ibid., VII, 9, 1.

36. ibid., VII, 10, 1.

37. Sira, 685-6/II, 235-6.

38. Sira, 352, 396/I, 514, 567.

39. The Times, 18 August 1973; and The Guardian, 20 August 1973.

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/jewish-mythson-islam/muhammad_900_jews_notkilled.htm

Lilia
Algeria

Lilia from Algeria said...

Harry,

Re:"Mohammed and his followers murdered all of the Jews in the Arabian Peninsula"

From PBS (USA) this time:

http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/ma_jews.shtml

"Judaism was already well established in Medina two centuries before Muhammad's birth. Although influential, the Jews did not rule the oasis. Rather, they were clients of two large Arab tribes there, the Khazraj and the Aws Allah, who protected them in return for feudal loyalty. Medina's Jews were expert jewelers, and weapons and armor makers. There were many Jewish clans-some records indicate more than twenty, of which three were prominent-the Banu Nadir, the Banu Qaynuqa, and the Banu Qurayza.

Various traditions uphold different views, and it is unclear whether Medina's Jewish clans were Arabized Jews or Arabs who practiced Jewish monotheism. Certainly they were Arabic speakers with Arab names. They followed the fundamental precepts of the Torah, though scholars question their familiarity with the Talmud and Jewish scholarship, and there is a suggestion in the Qur'an that they may have embraced unorthodox beliefs, such as considering the Prophet Ezra the son of God.

There were rabbis among the Jews of Medina, who appear in Muslim sources soon after Muhammad proclaimed himself a prophet. At that time the quizzical Meccans, knowing little about monotheism, are said to have consulted the Medinan rabbis, in an attempt to put Muhammad to the test. The rabbis posed three theological questions for the Meccans to ask Muhammad, asserting that they would know, by his answers, whether or not he spoke the truth. According to later reports, Muhammad replied to the rabbis' satisfaction, but the Meccans remained unconvinced.

Muhammad arrived in Medina in 622 believing the Jewish tribes would welcome him. Contrary to expectation, his relations with several of the Jewish tribes in Medina were uneasy almost from the start. This was probably largely a matter of local politics. Medina was not so much a city as a fractious agricultural settlement dotted by fortresses and strongholds, and all relations in the oasis were uneasy. In fact, Muhammad had been invited there to arbitrate a bloody civil war between the Khazraj and the Aws Allah, in which the Jewish clans, being their clients, were embroiled.

At Muhammad's insistence, Medina's pagan, Muslim and Jewish clans signed a pact to protect each other, but achieving this new social order was difficult. Certain individual pagans and recent Medinan converts to Islam tried to thwart the new arrangement in various ways, and some of the Jewish clans were uneasy with the threatened demise of the old alliances. At least three times in five years, Jewish leaders, uncomfortable with the changing political situation in Medina, went against Muhammad, hoping to restore the tense, sometimes bloody-but predictable-balance of power among the tribes.

According to most sources, individuals from among these clans plotted to take his life at least twice, and once they came within a bite of poisoning him. Two of the tribes--the Banu Nadir and the Banu Qaynuqa--were eventually exiled for falling short on their agreed upon commitments and for the consequent danger they posed to the nascent Muslim community.

The danger was great. During this period, the Meccans were actively trying to dislodge Muhammad militarily, twice marching large armies to Medina. Muhammad was nearly killed in the first engagement, on the plains of Uhud just outside of Medina. In their second and final military push against Medina, now known as the Battle of the Trench, the Meccans recruited allies from northwestern Arabia to join the fight, including the assistance of the two exiled Jewish tribes. In addition, they sent envoys to the largest Jewish tribe still in Medina, the Banu Qurayza, hoping to win their support. The Banu Qurayza's crucial location on the south side of Medina would allow the Meccans to attack Muhammad from two sides.

The Banu Qurayza were hesitant to join the Meccan alliance, but when a substantial Meccan army arrived, they agreed.

As a siege began, the Banu Qurayza nervously awaited further developments. Learning of their intention to defect and realizing the grave danger this posed, Muhammad initiated diplomatic efforts to keep the Banu Qurayza on his side. Little progress was made. In the third week of the siege, the Banu Qurayza signaled their readiness to act against Muhammad, although they demanded that the Meccans provide them with hostages first, to ensure that they wouldn't be abandoned to face Muhammad alone. Yet that is exactly what happened. The Meccans, nearing exhaustion themselves, refused to give the Banu Qurayza any hostages. Not long after, cold, heavy rains set in, and the Meccans gave up the fight and marched home, to the horror and dismay of the Banu Qurayza.

The Muslims now commenced a 25-day siege against the Banu Qurazya's fortress. Finally, both sides agreed to arbitration. A former ally of the Banu Qurayza, an Arab chief named Sa'd ibn Muadh, now a Muslim, was chosen as judge. Sa'd, one of the few casualties of battle, would soon die of his wounds. If the earlier tribal relations had been in force, he would have certainly spared the Banu Qurayza. His fellow chiefs urged him to pardon these former allies, but he refused. In his view, the Banu Qurayza had attacked the new social order and failed to honor their agreement to protect the town. He ruled that all the men should be killed. Muhammad accepted his judgment, and the next day, according to Muslim sources, 700 men of the Banu Qurayza were executed. Although Sa'd judged according to his own views, his ruling coincides with Deuteronomy 20:12-14.

Most scholars of this episode agree that neither party acted outside the bounds of normal relations in 7th century Arabia. The new order brought by Muhammad was viewed by many as a threat to the age-old system of tribal alliances, as it certainly proved to be. For the Banu Qurayza, the end of this system seemed to bring with it many risks. At the same time, the Muslims faced the threat of total extermination, and needed to send a message to all those groups in Medina that might try to betray their society in the future. It is doubtful that either party could have behaved differently under the circumstances.

Yet Muhammad did not confuse the contentiousness of clan relations in the oasis with the religious message of Judaism. Passages in the Qur'an that warn Muslims not to make pacts with the Jews of Arabia emerge from these specific wartime situations. A larger spirit of respect, acceptance, and comradeship prevailed, as recorded in a late chapter of the Qur'an:
We sent down the Torah, in which there is guidance and light, by which the Prophets who surrendered to God's will provided judgments for the Jewish people. Also, the rabbis and doctors of the Law (did likewise), according to that portion of God's Book with which they were entrusted, and they became witnesses to it as well…. Whoever does not judge by what God has sent down (including the Torah), they are indeed unbelievers. (5:44)
Some individual Medinan Jews, including at least one rabbi, became Muslims. But generally, the Jews of Medina remained true to their faith. Theologically, they could not accept Muhammad as a messenger of God, since, in keeping with Jewish belief, they were waiting for a prophet to emerge from among their own people.

The exiled Banu Nadir and the Banu Qaynuqa removed to the prosperous northern oasis of Khaybar, and later pledged political loyalty to Muhammad. Other Jewish clans honored the pact they had signed and continued to live in peace in Medina long after it became the Muslim capital of Arabia."

Hope it helped you correct your mistaken assumptions abour our most beloved Prophet Mohammad (saaws).

Salam
Lilia
Algeria

ABNPOPPA said...

Lilia,

Regarding your websites and real Jewish people. My best friend is Jewish and I assure you he is real. I run this blog to Learn, Think and Discern. I take in the information and make MY decision regarding how I interpret the facts or non-facts as I see them. I do really appreciate your input.

Liz,

Thanks for clarifying the poem. We did fight behind trees and bales of cotton and the like. I have often said that. War is war although there must be some rules of conduct even for war.

OK, let me get this straight there really is an National Guard Post in your neighborhood, right. That's the bad thing about the net, you can't read a persons facial expression and know if they are being sarcastic or not.

Harry,

You are forgiven for name calling. If you are Catholic do 10 Hail Marys for your pentance. If you are Christian pray for forgiveness. If you are Jewish, well you know what to do, just do it. The next time you call someone a name it will be Time Out for you. (:0). Smiling here.

Pops

Elizabeth said...

Harry,
You clearly have some psychological need to hate Palestinians. You focus selectively on some facts and not others in order to confirm what you already believe. There is no point in arguing with you because you have a need to believe what you believe, and I am not your psychotherapist and cannot delve into your unconscious motivations here.

Pops,
You didn't really think I invented a whole National Guard post did you?? Maybe I can find a picture of it and sent it to you. It is quite old. The troops jog by my building every Saturday morning.

Elizabeth said...

Here's a link..of course, now you know where I live..:
http://www.superpages.com/bp/New-York-NY/National-Guard-Recruiting-L0129906502.htm

I have no idea why it would be cross-listed under "gourmet food." I'm pretty sure the reservists do not get any gourmet food, but who knows. Come to think of it the armory uptown has a restaurant that is pretty good.

Elizabeth said...

Here's the Wikipedia entry, with a picture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/69th_Regiment_Armory

Hmm. I wonder if Harry thinks the Army/National Guard was using the Victoria's Secret models and art patrons as human shields? (it is a large building).

Harry said...

Lilia,
You are being much too modest. With your ability to decide who is and who isn’t a real Jew, I’m sure you know much more than you are letting on.

Arabian Jews had a hand in misrepresenting the facts in Ibn Ishaq’s history? Of course, how could it be any other way? Were these Zionist Jews? Mossad agents? After all, if they can murder a U.S. president and bring down the twin towers without arousing suspicion, while forcing others to pay for their crimes, it should be no trouble at all to corrupt Islamic texts. And the similarities that are allegedly noticed between Ibn Ishaq’ history and Josephus’ history, we know the Jews of Josephus’ time were not real Jews, but Zionists as they live in what is now Israel. Right? Are there other Islamic scriptures that whose authenticity are questioned, or just the ones surrounding the destruction of the Jews of Arabia? And one must remember that it wasn’t only Jewish communities that were wiped out, but pagans, Christians, Hindus, and others throughout history.

This is what exposes your anti-Semitism. It’s not your criticism of Israel. As I’ve said before, honest criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitism. You actually haven’t spent as much time criticizing Israel as you have throwing out insane conspiracy theories that blame Jews for all the evils of the world. You can call them Zionists. You can claim that you’re talking about the Mossad, that you have nothing against “real Jews” (defined by you), but it all comes down to – when there’s trouble, there is some form of Jew causing it. To you, Jews are like some supernatural evil force. To you, Jews are not human. And that, my dear Lilia, is anti-Semitism.

To paraphrase Shylock, Shakespeare’s Jew from The Merchant of Venice, “Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Muslim is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?”

To you, and I suspect, to millions more in the Muslim world, the answer would be no. From what I’ve read and seen, these insane paranoid conspiracy theories consume much thought in the Muslim world. Tell me, did Zionists or Mossad cause the 2004 tsunami? Do they use the blood of Muslim children to make matzos? Are the Protocols of the Elders of Zion the truth? Are AIDS infected prostitutes sent into Palestinian areas to . . . well . . . you know. I’ve noticed that Muslims never ever take responsibility for the destruction they’ve caused. It’s always the fault of somebody else, mostly Jews/Zionists/Mossad.

Most of the arguments I’ve raised during this discussion, you’ve ignored. But I’ve learned to expect that.

Elizabeth,
Whenever I get into an argument with an Israel basher, it always comes down to the basher ignoring most of my points because they can’t be honestly refuted, and then being accused of hatred. Do your arguments make you an Israel hater? All I’m doing is demanding that Hamas be held accountable for their destructive, murderous actions. When claiming double standards, remember, Hamas is excused for murder while Israel is condemned for self-defense.

Regarding Victoria’s Secret, I wrote to them offering my services as a human shield for their models. As a patriotic American, I offered to shield them as closely as needed for as long as needed.

As long as you insist on misrepresenting my explanation of human shields, you will never be able to argue honestly. But your sarcasm is improving.

Pops,
No I’m not Catholic, so I’m not sure of the procedure for a Hail Mary. But I can certainly do a “Hail Fredonia.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5cJuAtNcJA

Lilia from Algeria said...

Salam,

Harry,

What can I say? You're determined to call me anti-Semitic; I'm adamant: I'm NOT. Am I against the Zionist state called Israel, of course YES! Here is where our ideas really clash, so don't try to move the topic to anti-Semitism.

I'm sorry if my comments seemed to imply that I had the ability or willingness "to decide who is and who isn’t a real Jew", but be sure that this has NEVER been my intent. Why do you always try to twist what I say?

Since you quoted, or, to be more correct, paraphrased Shakespeare's Shylock, please tell me “Hath not a Palestinian eyes? Hath not a Palestinian hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a[n] 'Israeli' is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?”

To you, and I suspect, to millions [of Zionists], the answer would be no. Because if the answer was yes, you wouldn't still be so pro 'Israel' and so blind to its atrocities.

Since you & others consider Hamas to be 'terrorists' & 'Israel' a 'humane democracy' (!), whatever the 'atrocities' Hamas would commit how do you justify the total disregard for human life shown by the Zionist state? I really do not comprehend your 'inability' to see/acknowledge this fact!

Do you justify the Zionist state's abominable doings in Palestine by the 'abominable doings' of the 'terrorist' Hamas?!!! Be sure that Arabs and Muslims are not the only ones who decry & see the reality of what's going on in Palestine. When I think of the horrific unconventional weapons used on the guinea-pigs, uh sorry, Palestinians, in Gaza!!! And you DARE to think yourselves better than the Nazis during WWII! Zionists surpassed the Nazis on everything.

If the Zionist state had nothing to hide, it would have let all the journalists enter Gaza & cover freely the 'surgical' bombings on the populated area, but it didn't.

Hamas hide in Mosques, let's bomb the mosques! Hamas hide in cemeteries; let's bomb cemeteries (even the dead are not spared)! Hamas hide among the few journalists present in Gaza; let’s bomb their compound those #%*… journalists who try to hinder us in our ‘noble’ mission of ‘exterminating all the brutes’! Hamas are hiding in hospitals, well, let's bomb hospitals (!!!!!!!!!); Hamas hide in SCHOOLS...oh, let's bomb schools... even if they are run by the UN? Yes, what's the problem, have we ever listened to the UN? Let's even bomb the UN headquarters, it'll show them to try to 'criticise' us!...

"They bombed the central vegetable market in Gaza City two hours ago. 80 injured, 20 killed. All were brought here to Shifa [Hospital]. Hades! We’re wading in death, blood and amputees. Many children. Pregnant woman. I’ve never experienced anything this horrible. We’re hearing tanks now. Tell it, pass it on, shout it. DO SOMETHING! DO MORE! We’re living in the history books now, all of us!

Mads Gilbert
3.1.09 13:50
Gaza, Palestine"

(This is a text message sent from the Norwegian anaesthesiologist and professor in emergency medicine Mads Gilbert to the Norwegian media on the heat of the moment. Gilbert and surgeon Erik Fosse were the only European health care workers on the Gaza Strip during the bombings).

Poor doctor, it was only the beginning of the horror he'd never witnessed before...

Be serious, do you really support the so-called 'state of Israel' in spite of everything? Where's your 'honest criticism of Israel' which is not anti-Semitism?

Lilia
Algeria

Lilia from Algeria said...

Harry,

Re: "Tell me, did Zionists or Mossad cause the 2004 tsunami?"

Your insisting on talking about that pushed me to 'investigate' whether such a claim has really been made & I found that, contrary to what you said (Muslims making such a claim) it was an Australian man, Joe Vialls, who made that claim.

"Many of Vialls' investigations blamed significant world events - such as the 2004 Asian Tsunami - on joint CIA/Mossad operations, and Vialls maintained in disclaimers on his site that his reports were written in the interest of public safety..."

Thank you for the clue; I'll read more about him. He seems an interesting person
(After a period of illness, Vialls was reported to have died at the Royal Perth Hospital in Western Australia on 17 July 2005 of a massive heart attack)... A massive heart attack... Sounds weird... :0)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Vialls

Lilia
Algeria

Elizabeth said...

"Hamas is excused for murder while Israel is condemned for self-defense."

By whom? Certainly not the US media or government.

Harry said...

Lilia,
Hmm, Jews - excuse me - Zionists as worse than Nazis. Certainly nobody could mistake that comparison as anti-Semitism. Hysterical perhaps. You might want to examine what the Nazis actually did during WWII, and not only to Jews. Wait, that’s right! I’d almost forgotten. Thanks for reminding me. Nazis murdered Jews. Who else murders Jews? That’s right, Hamas. And take a look at the photos at the following link? What do you notice about the Hamas salute? http://images.google.com/images?q=hamas%20salute&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi Oh, and here is another atrocity. Once the bloodlust is up, it must be hard to control. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232643736968&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Wow, dueling Shakespeares. Rather than put that question to the Israelis who’ve taken great pains to a avoid civilian casualties, because they do not worship death, as your pals at Hamas do, you might ask Hamas as they torture and murder Fatah members and accused “collaborators”. Also ask the Lebanese government after their destruction of the Nahr al-Bared refugee camp in 2007. Ask the Kuwatis, who expelled 400,000 Palestinians from their country in 1991 because they supported Saddam in the first Gulf War. Ask the surrounding Arab governments who have kept the Palestinians as perpetual refugees for sixty years rather than settle them and allow them to be productive as Israel did with the almost one million Jews who were forced out of Muslim countries after Israel refused to be driven into the sea by the invading Arab armies in 1948.

So why does Hamas hide in hospitals, schools, and mosques? And why do they store their munitions there? Aren’t mosques considered holy? Houses of God? And blasting rockets from schools, while they’re full of children? They’re demanding that the IDF attack these places. You don’t see a problem with that? You truly do live in an alternate reality.

As for your new idol, Mads Gilbert, you can find more info here. http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=35&x_article=1580 I’m sure you will approve of all of it.

A “Jews caused tsunami” video can be found at, http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Mudyris_Tsunami.asx

Lilia from Algeria said...

Salam,

Harry,

I assure you that I foresaw your 'response'; absolutely nothing new; no direct answer to my questions & always so ANTI-Palestinian... Should I say ANTI-Muslim/Islamophobe too?...

Regarding Mads Gilbert, I was so sure that you'd try to discredit him that I included in my previous response to you (before deleting it) something like: "Oh, by the way, this doctor had been criticised by the usual critics whose specialty is to attack each time a (true) negative statement uttered against the Zionist state but also by a VERY objective & truthful news channel that I admire immensely; it's Fix News, uh sorry, Faux News... Fox News..." & I was right!!!

What about statements like these?:

- "The current Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians"

- "The spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestinians. The total is now 1,000. She replied instantly that '500 of them were militants'. That was the reply of a Nazi."

- "I suppose the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants."

- "It is time to remind Sharon that the star of David belongs to all Jews, not to his repulsive Government. His actions are staining the star of David with blood. The Jewish people, whose gifts to civilised discourse include Einstein and Epstein, Mendelssohn and Mahler, Sergei Eisenstein and Billy Wilder, are now symbolised throughout the world by the blustering bully Ariel Sharon, a war criminal implicated in the murder of Palestinians at the Sabra and Shatila camps and now involved in killing Palestinians once again"

- "It is time for our government to make clear to the Israeli government that its conduct and policies are unacceptable and to impose a total arms ban on Israel"

Such anti-Semitic statements! Comparing 'Israelis' to Nazis!!! Oh my God!!! Do they come from a Hamas militant? or a former SS officer, or simply an anti-Semite?!!!

Well, these statements are those of Gerald Kaufman, British Labour Member of Parliament who is... Jewish. He said: "My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed. My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza."

You know what? You are better than the Nazis in something else: PROPAGANDA! My God! How brilliant you are in twisting reality, distorting truths & misrepresenting facts!!! & on top of all that you dare to try your propaganda on ME? Trying to ensnare ME with your untruths? Hey, thank Allah I’m clever enough to see clearly what’s going on. You should be ashamed of yourself! Finding nothing to justify the crimes, atrocities, destruction, ruthlessness (you can add any term you want) & hiding behind stupid unbelievable stories. For God's sake STOP your bigoted gossip.

Sure Harry, people like Kaufman & Mads Gilbert MUST be 'bought' by Hamas money to DARE to say such unholy things!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

"Israel
Kaufman, who is himself Jewish, is a member of the Jewish Labour Movement[5] formerly Poale Zion, a pro-Zionist group affiliated with the Labour party in Britain. He has become one of the leading Jewish critics of Israel. Kaufman has called for economic sanctions and an arms ban against Israel, citing the success of such measures against apartheid South Africa.[6] He has called Israel a "pariah"[7] and its senior politicians "war criminals."[8][9] In 2002 he created a BBC television documentary,[10] The End of the Affair, in which he recounted his youthful infatuation with Israel and his eventual disillusionment.[11]

In April 2002 during Israel's controversial military operation codenamed Defensive Wall, Kaufman gave a speech to the House of Commons, saying in part:

It is time to remind Sharon that the star of David belongs to all Jews, not to his repulsive Government. His actions are staining the star of David with blood. The Jewish people, whose gifts to civilised discourse include Einstein and Epstein, Mendelssohn and Mahler, Sergei Eisenstein and Billy Wilder, are now symbolised throughout the world by the blustering bully Ariel Sharon, a war criminal implicated in the murder of Palestinians at the Sabra and Shatila camps and now involved in killing Palestinians once again.[12]

In January 2009, during the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, Kaufman gave a speech to the House of Commons where he stated: "The present Israeli government ruthless and cynically exploits the continuing guilt from Gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians."[13][14][15]

About his own family experience he said: "My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed. My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza."[13]

Kaufman also made a comparison of Hamas members in Gaza to the Jewish resistance during World War II, saying: "The spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestinians. The total is now 1,000. She replied instantly that '500 of them were militants'. That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants."[13] And he said: "It is time for our government to make clear to the Israeli government that its conduct and policies are unacceptable and to impose a total arms ban on Israel.”[16]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Kaufman

"UK’s Jewish MP calls it Nazi-like operation

LONDON, Jan 15: A British Jewish lawmaker compared the Israeli offensive in Gaza on Thursday to the Nazis who forced his family to flee from Poland.

Gerald Kaufman, a member of the Jewish Labour movement linked to Premier Gordon Brown’s ruling party, also called for an arms embargo on Israel.

“My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town and a German soldier shot her dead in her bed,” Kaufman said during a parliamentary debate on the Gaza war.

“My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza.

“The present Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt from gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians.”

Israel’s claim that many of the Palestinian victims were militants “was the reply of the Nazi,” he said, adding: “I suppose the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.” Kaufman, said Hamas was a “deeply nasty” organisation, but said it was democratically elected.

“It is time for our government to make clear to the Israeli government that its conduct and policies are unacceptable and to impose a total arms ban on Israel,” he said.—AFP"

http://www.dawn.com/2009/01/16/top12.htm

JTA: The Global News Service of the Jewish People

"MP Kaufman likens Israelis to Nazis
January 16, 2009

LONDON (JTA) - A Jewish member of Britain's parliament accused Israel of exploiting Holocaust guilt to justify its actions in the Gaza Strip.

"The current Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians," Sir Gerald Kaufman, a veteran MP of the governing Labour Party and a long-time critic of Israel, said Thursday in parliament.

Referring to his personal background, as the son of Jewish refugees from Poland, he said: "My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed. My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza."

Kaufman compared the Hamas militants in Gaza to Jewish resistance fighters during the Second World War, saying: "The spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestinians. The total is now 1,000. She replied instantly that '500 of them were militants'. That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants."

Israel launched major operations in Gaza on Dec. 27 after Hamas ended a fragile cease-fire with a massive intensification of rocket attacks into southern Israel."

http://jta.org/news/article/2009/01/16/1002308/mp-kaufman-likens-israelis-to-nazis

Lilia from Algeria said...

A Palestinian doctor whose family got killed in the Israeli bombings... My God, I get sick each time I think of what that father has been through.

Israeli TV airs Gaza doctor's pleas after children killed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUJ4fF2HN4&feature=related

Elizabeth said...

Here's a story of the efforts (not) of the Israeli military to avoid civilian casualties:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5601177.ece

Harry said...

Lilia,
You’re getting kind of hysterical. You’re even foaming at the mouth. Be careful. You could damage your keyboard if, you know, that foam drips. It would be quite a mess. But genius that you are, I’m sure that you’ve already thought of a way to avoid keyboard damage. Actually, you would be more the super genius as you’ve thought of a way to totally avoid reality.

For example, you charge that I haven’t answered your arguments. I’ve seen this tactic before, where one blames their own shortcomings on their opponent. I believe the point was brought up on Jungle Hut by other commenters whose arguments you neglected to answer, just like you’ve neglected to answer most of mine. You merely bring new charges.

Believe what you want about your Norwegian doctor, you will accept anything, true or not, that shows Israel in a poor light. It’s how you justify your support of Hamas.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129393 and http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/32393_A_Staged_Scene_in_a_Gaza_Hospital_-_Update-_CNN_Yanks_Video

By the way, the moral equivalence argument doesn’t cut it. The Nazis (whose salute was adopted by Hamas) may have thought the Warsaw ghetto Jews (were they real or fake?) as militants. Who cares about the opinion of a Nazi? Besides, Hamas is a terrorist organization. I don’t recall any of the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto strapping bombs to their bodies and attacking German or Polish discos, pizza parlors, or religious services. They didn’t raise their children on a diet of hatred as Hamas does with their children

Jews who hate what other Jews are practicing? Jews who have allowed themselves to become dhimmis? Yep you found some. Jews who reject what most Jews believe in? Yep, you found some. Guess what. Every religion has them. Since so many people around the world have this unhealthy obsession with Jews, anti-Semitic Jews (yes, you read that right, and I used the same term in earlier comments) get the most attention. You’ve got Muslims who have rejected or question tenets of Islam. Of course, in Islam, apostates are murdered since apostasy is a crime. So unless they are protected or can remain anonymous, we don’t hear much from them. Unlike Muslims, we Jews don’t murder our apostates. It’s not in our scripture. We throw up our hands and yell “Oy vey!” So now I can lead you to some of my favorite Muslims and apostates. First there is Ayan Hirsi Ali in this interview where she correctly points out that there is no such thing as “islamophobia.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08EYqwyns-k

And here is an interview with Irshad Manji.
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Islam/2004/02/My-Faith-Is-A-Mess.aspx According to the introduction to the interview, “Irshad Manji, 35, has been called the "nonfiction Salman Rushdie" and "Osama Bin Laden's worst nightmare"-and she takes both as compliments. Her book, The Trouble With Islam, was released in the United States a few weeks ago after making waves for months in her native Canada, and also in Germany. For her views, Manji says she is facing threats on her life: her apartment in Toronto is outfitted with bullet-proof glass.

Manji says her faith has become infested with hatred -- of Jews, of women, of gays, of the West. And instead of confronting these issues directly and openly, most Western Muslims -- the only Muslims with the freedom to debate -- have instead retreated.
Manji's questioning started when she was a little girl. It reached a critical point, when, at the age of 14, she had it out with her madressa teacher after she demanded he provide evidence of the "so-called Jewish conspiracy" against Islam. He ordered her to shut up or get out. So Manji fled.”
Do you have the courage to read the interview? Or has your sooooper genius mental capacity convinced you that this is more of my propaganda? Here is Irshad Manji’s website: http://www.muslimrefusenik.com/

Here are some more Muslims who deviate from the official party line. http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/

And then there is Foud Ajami, http://www.google.com/search?q=foud+ajami&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Elizabeth,
Interesting article you had Pops post on my blog. For more of the story, read: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g7oGd-XdQIf8EFZ8mTOmNSrfS_PwD961BU580

And this one is interesting too. http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=35130

In case you don’t feel like linking because you only want enough information (or misinformation) to still be able to blame Israel for all that is wrong in the Middle East, here’s the entire article:
Date: 20 / 01 / 2009 Time: 13:39
Bethlehem – Ma’an – The Jordanian news agency Petra reported on Tuesday that armed men held up an aid convoy after it crossed into the Gaza Strip.The agency reported that armed men fired at the trucks and diverted them to private warehouses after they passed through the Kerem Shalom border crossing, an Israeli-controlled crossing used primarily for shipments of humanitarian aid.The supplies had been donated by the Hashemite Jordanian charity organization. The trucks earlier crossed into the West Bank using the Allenby Bridge and then proceed to Gaza.According to the report, the charity had coordinated in advance with UNRWA, the UN’s agency for Palestinian refugees, to receive the shipment in its warehouses after it entered Gaza.Also according to the report, UNRWA has suspended other aid shipments as the trucks and drivers are still being held in Gaza. Negotiations are reportedly being held for their release.

The massacre report sounds a lot like Jenin and all of the other alleged atrocities Israel has been accused of. You can refer back to an earlier comment for a partial list. The thing is, on those rare occasions when IDF troops have crossed the line, they have been brought to trial in Israel. And yet, you continue to defend Hamas who glorify homicide bombers. There is a lovely video by one whom you defend (and admire?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPJKPFUrTq4

Are you going to excuse this as part of a guerrilla war or just ignore the question, something both you and Lilia have been doing? I answer a charge; you go fishing to find a new one.

Just as there have been an unending series of excuses for murdering Jews for the past 2000 years, you will come up with an unending series of excuses for hating Israel – and they will all be based on a partial story or a whole lie.

Lilia from Algeria said...

Salam,

Harry,

You've taken your time in posting a comment; I've began to miss your ‘peace-loving’ arguments about the ‘peace-loving’ 'Israel'. & thanks for the compliment (genius) I already know that fact^^

You did NOT refute the idea of being ANTI-Palestinian/ ANTI-Muslim/ Islamophobe which doesn't surprise me at all (being the genius that I am); but I'm just a bit disappointed because you don't have the courage & -should I say?- the honesty to say it directly & plainly. Well, I must not expect too much from someone who is afraid of the truth.

In your desire to shift the topic from what it really is to what you like it to be, I noticed that you have used & still use throughout all of your ‘comments’ a tactic that is unfortunately widely used nowadays by scheming people to undermine the Palestinian question; you try to move the Israeli-Palestinian war from a political question to a religious question which is absurd & totally out of topic; but I learnt to expect that from you.

You assume that Gerald Kaufman is an anti-Semitic Jew! If you read carefully his biography you would have known that it’s exactly the opposite. But of course, everyone who criticises ‘Israel’ is an Anti-Semite. Of course!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_NO_obIoVcRA/SYU06OkgNlI/AAAAAAAAAGI/USCH4F172d8/s1600-h/beirut.jpg

(Smile despite it all, my son! Indeed, they will accuse you of anti-Semitism.
[The cartoon comes from the Israel Hizbullah War but applies equally to Gaza.])

http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/brain-and-behavior/2009/01/16/are-you-paranoid-quiz-yourself.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/20090121/ts_usnews/paranoid5waystoshrinkyoursuspicions;_ylt=ArI_F5TjYR0Lbl5ZwyQZNBO63q8F

For the record my dear sir, although I’m a Gentile I have no ‘continuing guilt over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust’; on the contrary I’m very proud of what the Muslims –through the teachings of Islam- behaviour towards Jews have always been. I still remember how my grand-mother (may Allah rest her soul in peace) used to tell us about her Jewish neighbours & how, among other things, they relied on her & the other Muslim inhabitants to help them accomplish their rituals on Saturdays Shabbat by performing themselves (the Muslims)some kinds of ‘melachah’ that their Jewish neighbours were prohibited to accomplish for religious reasons. I also have in mind the Muslims who risked their own lives in order to save Jews from the Nazis in WWII.

Most Holocaust historians would agree that Muslim Europe - Albania, Bosnia, and Turkey - responded courageously and righteously, especially in comparison to Christian Europe. In addition, in North Africa, the Ulema of Algeria, the Sultan of Morocco, and the Bey of Tunis all lent support to their beleaguered Jewish countrymen.

("Their children are like our own children"
"Yesterday at dawn, the Jews of Paris were arrested. The old, the women, and the children. In exile like ourselves, workers like ourselves. They are our brothers. Their children are like our own children. The one who encounters one of his children must give that child shelter and protection for as long as misfortune - or sorrow - lasts. Oh, man of my country, your heart is generous." ~ A tract read to immigrant Algerian workers in Paris during WWII, asking them to help shelter Jewish children.)


http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1193049419594&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1190886243397&pagename=Zone-English-News%2FNWELayout


So please Harry, try to see the truth with a clear mind & do not take Islam as your ‘argument’; Muslims are certainly not perfect; Islam is perfect. If there is a problem it’s POLITICAL.

Funny that you brandish proudly this saying in your blog ‘The secret of happiness is freedom & the secret of freedom is courage’. Ironical.

I do not hate you Harry, I just wish you’ll change your perception of what’s going on. If you’re religious, read the Torah (remember the links I pasted about its teachings?) or if you’re not religious (my guess, since you use your computer on Saturday/ post your ‘comment’) just try for once to look with a clear mind at what atrocities the so called ‘state of Israel’ is committing & how it has severed the ties of thousand of years of Muslim Jewish peaceful cohabitation. Sad really.

I, like Eve Meriam who put it so beautifully, ‘dream of giving birth to a child who will ask, ‘Mother, what is war?’.

May Allah open your eyes to the truth & show you the right path Incha’Allah.
This is my last comment for that post. If you want to send me a peace loving message you can ask Pops for my email address.


Elizabeth,

Thanks for fighting for the truth notwithstanding all the barriers and obstacles.


Salam
Lilia
Algeria

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/

"And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians), those who believe in Allah, and that which has been revealed to you and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allah: They will not sell the Revelations of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account."
{Holy Quran 3:199}

{Do you know what is better than charity and fasting and prayer? It is keeping peace and good relations between people, as quarrels and bad feelings destroy mankind.} ~ Prophet Mohammad (saaws)

ABNPOPPA said...

Well Harry,

Do we get a "peace loving comment" I will be happy to pass it one. Thanks to you, Lilia from Algeria, Elizabeth from New York, New York, Subvet, from somewhere under/above the seas, Jungle Mom,from a hammock hanging between two trees, in SA,and all those who commented and kept this discussion going.

Whether you agree or disagree with the comments posted if you have read, thought, and learned then, my friends, this blog has done it's job.

Peace, Shalom, and Happy Trails to you until we meet again.

Pops

Harry said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Harry said...

Lilia,
Final comments:
It’s come down to hysteria from Algeria, so there is no point in continuing. As for who is twisting reality, that is a futile argument. No matter how often or how loudly Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel, no matter how many times Israel is attacked by Hamas and the other terrorist organizations, you will find a way to call “good” evil, and “evil” good.

I don’t hate you either, and I suspect that your thinking is formed by the news you receive. Take the following video for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3IWbtUlWEY&eurl=http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/ Religion of peace?

Believe it or not, I’ve read the Torah, and the Tanakh, of which the Torah is the first five books. You might be interested it too. It may or may not open your eyes, but it would take you back to the beginning of Monotheism.

I don’t expect a response to this, but here is a news report from the Ma’an News Agency, which I believe is out of Syria. It follows the link. It may or may not give you something to think about. http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=35455

“Ramallah – Ma’an – A senior leader within Fatah slammed what he called “Hamas crimes against patriotic people” in the Gaza Strip Monday.

The comments come after a string of reports of human rights violations committed by Palestinians against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip during the Israeli war on Gaza.

The Undersecretary of the caretaker government’s Ministry of Prisoners Affairs Ziyad Abu Ein spoke out against the rights violations and accused Hamas of “terrorism,” and said they were preventing media outlets in Gaza report on their crimes.

“Our people badly need a free press capable of protecting the truth,” he said, noting that the truth was all that could counter the “terrorist procedures against patriotic Palestinians.”

Abu Ein also published a list of names and neighborhoods of those in Gaza who were killed, maimed, beaten or tortured during the Israeli war on Gaza.

He encouraged aid organizations inside Gaza to check the list and contact those who have given testimony and prove the truth of the list of 181 names. Abu Ein also called on the Arab League to send a fact-finding mission to Gaza and uncover the reality behind the shocking information.

Abu Ein said he held the current caretaker government responsible for initiating the proper legal procedures against those responsible for the crimes and anyone who gave the directives for murder or torture. These people must be brought to justice in front of Palestinians and the Arab world, he said.

The list provided from Abu Ein is as follows:

Names and locations of those executed by Palestinians :
~the list includes jobs or affiliations as appropriate~ “ They publish the list of names. You can read it at the link if you wish.

I’m not sure what you mean about the religious – political shell game you accuse me of. You could have been clearer on that.

Some Muslims did help Jews during the Holocaust. Some helped the Nazis. Bosnian Muslims were especially vicious and bloodthirsty. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, also offered his services to Hitler. Your grandmother sounds like a fine and virtuous woman (and no, I’m not being sarcastic). You could learn a lot from her about treating people of all faiths like people.

Elizabeth,
I hope you read this comment too, especially the news report.

Pops,
Thanks for the forum. Normally I hate long good-byes. Soooo . . .
Hello, I must be going.

ABNPOPPA said...

Thank you all for your contributions

Pops

Lutheran Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Destruction of the embryo in the mother's womb is a violation of the right to live which God has bestowed upon this nascent life. To raise the question whether we are here concerned already with a human being or not is merely to confuse the issue. The simple fact is that God certainly intended to create a human being and that this nascent human being has been deliberately deprived of his life. And that is nothing but murder.

Read more about this famous Lutheran Pastor at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer